The Nazi and The Psychiatrist with Jack El-Hai - the book upon which the movie Nuremberg was based

In an era when American democracy faces unprecedented challenges and questions about authoritarianism have moved from the margins to the center of our political discourse, this conversation with author Jack El-Hai offers crucial historical perspective. The parallels between the events he chronicles in his book and the political landscape we're witnessing today make this discussion essential listening for anyone concerned about the preservation of democratic institutions and the rise of authoritarian tendencies in contemporary America.

On this episode of Specifically for Seniors, host Dr. Larry Barsh welcomes Jack El-Hai, an acclaimed author and journalist whose work explores the fascinating and often disturbing intersections of medicine, psychology, and history.

El-Hai is the author of The Nazi and the Psychiatrist: Herman Göring, Dr. Douglas M. Kelley, and a Fatal Meeting of Minds at the End of World War II, a riveting account that takes listeners inside the Nuremberg trials and into the psychological battle between one of history's most notorious war criminals and the brilliant American psychiatrist tasked with understanding him.

The conversation centers on Dr. Douglas Kelley, a U.S. Army psychiatrist who was assigned to evaluate the twenty-two top Nazi defendants at Nuremberg to determine if they were mentally fit to stand trial. What Kelley discovered was both disturbing and revelatory. He found that these men who had committed unspeakable atrocities were not the "monsters" that wartime propaganda had portrayed. Instead, they were psychologically normal individuals, opportunists who had made deliberate choices to pursue power regardless of the human cost. This finding challenged comfortable narratives but revealed a more frightening truth: the capacity for such evil exists within the normal range of human personality, making accountability rather than pathology the central issue.

El-Hai uncovered the complex relationship between Kelley and Göring, two highly intelligent and manipulative men who found common ground despite standing on opposite sides of history. The conversation explores how Göring's charm and intelligence served his rise to power, and why understanding this matters profoundly for recognizing similar patterns today.

The discussion takes on particular urgency as El-Hai describes how Dr. Kelley returned from Nuremberg with warnings about authoritarianism potentially emerging in America. He saw disturbing parallels between Nazi governance and segregationist politics in the American South. Kelley advocated for critical thinking education, easier access to voting for eligible citizens, and vigilance against the manipulation of information and propaganda. Tragically, his warnings were largely ignored when his 1947 book flopped, and the experience contributed to a downward spiral that ended with his suicide in 1958, using the same method—cyanide poisoning—that Göring had used twelve years earlier.

El-Hai reflects on how his book, published in 2013 during the Obama administration when right-wing authoritarianism seemed on the fringes of American politics, has gained unexpected relevance. He discusses contemporary events in Minneapolis where he lives and teaches, drawing careful but important comparisons between historical patterns and current political developments.

The recent film Nuremberg, based on his book, has brought this story to new audiences who are grappling with the same questions about accountability, power, and democratic fragility that Kelley confronted eighty years ago.For listeners who lived through World War II or its aftermath, this conversation offers an opportunity to update perceptions from that era with the perspective of eighty years of history, while providing younger generations with essential context for understanding the enduring threats to democracy that each generation must confront anew.

Join our discussion of this podcast at larrybarshdmd.substack.com