The Art of the Debrief: How to Add Expertise to Our Experiences: Sean Zimmerman- Wall x Sara Boilen x Ian McCammon

Feb 1, 2026

Ian McCammon, a researcher blending physics and avalanche education, and Sara Boilen, a clinical psychologist applying human factors to safety, discuss improving how teams learn from outings. They cover rolling versus after-action debriefs. They explore barriers like fatigue and shame. Practical prompts, peer leadership, and when to write observations are highlighted.

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INSIGHT

Knowing The Formula Doesn’t Guarantee Debriefing

People know the 'correct' debrief formula but still struggle to use it because of negative vibes, fatigue, and thinking 'nothing happened.'
Ian's interviews found debriefs often fall flat in parking lots when everyone is cold and hungry.

ADVICE

Call Out Deviations From The Plan Immediately

Flag moments where actions deviate from plans (cutting corners, racing groups, smelling-the-barn) and discuss them immediately.
Ian recommends calling out deviations in real time to prevent errors rather than waiting until later.

ADVICE

Delay Heated Debriefs Until Emotions Cool

If debrief emotions run high, pause and schedule a follow-up after people process feelings (dinner, coffee, next day).
Sara advises lowering volume first so learning replaces reactive blame.

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Interview Highlights:

- Coming home each day is always the goal, and debriefing seems to be a helpful tool in adding expertise to our experience.

- Debriefing can look many different ways. It can happen in real time during an outing, known as a rolling debrief, or it can happen at the end of the day, and even at a later time.

- Ian and Sara posit that our debriefing skills are in need of attention, and that different personal and environmental factors impact how well we perform this critical task.

- While professionals participating in a debrief often have a defined leader, recreational users benefit from peer leadership.

About our guests:

Sara Boilen holds a doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Denver (2011). Professionally, she works with individuals who have had interactions with the justice system often in the spirit of helping to make sense of behavior and context. She has taken her professional interests and merged it with her recreational interests to contribute to the field of avalanche sciences in her free time. She is specifically interested in human-related problems and solutions. Dr. Boilen has presented at seven Snow and Avalanche Workshops and at ISSW in Norway. She has written articles for The Avalanche Review and was a co-author on the recently proposed conceptual framework for human factors in avalanche terrain. She lives in Northwest Montana and will carry dessert for you to the top of any mountain her skills will take her to.

Ian McCammon, often considered the godfather of human factors in avalanche education, has a unique background with a foot in scientific research and another in backcountry exploration. With formal training in physics, materials science, and engineering, Ian started in R&D before becoming deeply involved in avalanche education in the 1990s. Following the loss of his friend Steve Carruthers in an avalanche, he was driven to study how experienced individuals make fatal decisions despite knowing better. His work has since shaped modern avalanche education and risk management strategies.

Thanks to the sponsors of the show.

Legacy Sponsors:

Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund

AVSS

Drone Amplified

Partner Sponsors:

CIL Avalanche

Safeback

onX Backcountry

Episode Sponsor:

Snowbound Solutions

Music: Ketsa

Artwork: Mike Tea
Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating