The Nonlinear Library LW - On Lies and Liars by Gabriel Alfour
Nov 17, 2023
22:12
Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: On Lies and Liars, published by Gabriel Alfour on November 17, 2023 on LessWrong.
Note: I am a bad writer. If you want to help me by ghostwriting, reviewing or coaching, please reach out! I have a full stack of things to share, and I can pay well.
I've gotten quite a bit of feedback on my last post: "
Lying is Cowardice, not Strategy". Nice! I've been happy to see people discussing public honesty norms.
Some of the feedback was disappointing- people said things along the lines of: "Lies of omission are not lies! The fact that you have to add 'of omission' shows this!".
The worst that I have gotten in that vein was: "When you are on stand, you take an oath that says that you will convey the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The fact that you have to add 'the whole truth' shows that lies of omission are not lies."
This was from a person that also straightforwardly stated "I plan to keep continuing to not state my most relevant opinions in public", as they were defending this behavior.
But I have also received some helpful feedback that pointed out the lack of nuance in my post. Indeed, reality is complex, and I can not address all of it in one post, so I must make a lot of simplifications.
Furthermore, I am not (yet?) a good writer, so even within one post, I have many opportunities for improvement. While some people take advantage of this through
isolated demands for rigor or empty terminological disputes, others are genuinely confused by a novel point or framing that they never considered from a writer whose mind they do not have full access to.
This post is dedicated to the latter audience: people who tried to understand and/or apply my ideas, but are confused, because there is a lot that I have just not written. To help with this, in this post, I'll go through some of the less straightforward points that I have glossed over.
Point #0: What do I mean by lies? Are lies always bad?
When I say that someone lies, I mean that they have communicated anti-information: information that predictably makes people become more wrong about the world or about what the locutor believes. This includes lies of commission, lies of omission, misdirection, and more.
Even though lying is bad, there can be good reasons to lie. The obvious example is lying to a murderer at your door, asking for where your friend is. There are also situations where lying is innocuous, such as bluffing games.
Likewise, even though punching people is bad, there can be situations where it's justified, such as self-defense. There are also situations where punching is innocuous, such as sparring at a boxing club.
Furthermore, communication is hard. That's why you can even lie accidentally. It is not always easy to know how your statements will be taken, especially across cultures and contexts. This is very similar to insulting people accidentally.
Finally, it is extremely easy to lie without saying anything that is technically false. You can imply things, omit relevant information, make things sound worse than they are, use double-speak and ambiguity, etc.
Point #1: Predictable patterns of lying are what makes someone a liar
I write about "liars"- this might seem like meaninglessly strong moral language.
So let's make it clear what I mean by it. When I say "liars", I am talking about people who have a predictable pattern of lying.
The relevant fact is not whether what a person states can be constructed as technically true or technically false, but whether they predictably make people more wrong over time.
Why is it useful to have a concept of "liars?" Because it helps us build practical models of people. Everyone lies. But sometimes, people predictably lie, and you can deduce a fair bunch from this.
Being a liar is not an intrinsic property of a person. The world is not divided into liars and no...
Note: I am a bad writer. If you want to help me by ghostwriting, reviewing or coaching, please reach out! I have a full stack of things to share, and I can pay well.
I've gotten quite a bit of feedback on my last post: "
Lying is Cowardice, not Strategy". Nice! I've been happy to see people discussing public honesty norms.
Some of the feedback was disappointing- people said things along the lines of: "Lies of omission are not lies! The fact that you have to add 'of omission' shows this!".
The worst that I have gotten in that vein was: "When you are on stand, you take an oath that says that you will convey the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The fact that you have to add 'the whole truth' shows that lies of omission are not lies."
This was from a person that also straightforwardly stated "I plan to keep continuing to not state my most relevant opinions in public", as they were defending this behavior.
But I have also received some helpful feedback that pointed out the lack of nuance in my post. Indeed, reality is complex, and I can not address all of it in one post, so I must make a lot of simplifications.
Furthermore, I am not (yet?) a good writer, so even within one post, I have many opportunities for improvement. While some people take advantage of this through
isolated demands for rigor or empty terminological disputes, others are genuinely confused by a novel point or framing that they never considered from a writer whose mind they do not have full access to.
This post is dedicated to the latter audience: people who tried to understand and/or apply my ideas, but are confused, because there is a lot that I have just not written. To help with this, in this post, I'll go through some of the less straightforward points that I have glossed over.
Point #0: What do I mean by lies? Are lies always bad?
When I say that someone lies, I mean that they have communicated anti-information: information that predictably makes people become more wrong about the world or about what the locutor believes. This includes lies of commission, lies of omission, misdirection, and more.
Even though lying is bad, there can be good reasons to lie. The obvious example is lying to a murderer at your door, asking for where your friend is. There are also situations where lying is innocuous, such as bluffing games.
Likewise, even though punching people is bad, there can be situations where it's justified, such as self-defense. There are also situations where punching is innocuous, such as sparring at a boxing club.
Furthermore, communication is hard. That's why you can even lie accidentally. It is not always easy to know how your statements will be taken, especially across cultures and contexts. This is very similar to insulting people accidentally.
Finally, it is extremely easy to lie without saying anything that is technically false. You can imply things, omit relevant information, make things sound worse than they are, use double-speak and ambiguity, etc.
Point #1: Predictable patterns of lying are what makes someone a liar
I write about "liars"- this might seem like meaninglessly strong moral language.
So let's make it clear what I mean by it. When I say "liars", I am talking about people who have a predictable pattern of lying.
The relevant fact is not whether what a person states can be constructed as technically true or technically false, but whether they predictably make people more wrong over time.
Why is it useful to have a concept of "liars?" Because it helps us build practical models of people. Everyone lies. But sometimes, people predictably lie, and you can deduce a fair bunch from this.
Being a liar is not an intrinsic property of a person. The world is not divided into liars and no...