Why Did Epstein's System Work? (The Science + Fact Checking)

Dive into the latest Epstein leaks with Malcolm and Simone Collins on Based Camp! We break down the bizarre “pizza” obsession among elites (spoiler: it’s not about food), analyze what’s real vs. conspiracy hype—like torture videos, baby-eating claims, and connections to figures like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Trump, and Prince Andrew. Plus, we explore the fascinating science behind why wealthy men prefer youthful traits (backed by our own research on breast preferences and evolutionary psychology). From elite predator networks to why conservatives are embracing fetishes at Mar-a-Lago, we separate fact from fiction without holding back. Is Pizzagate back? We discuss without getting banned.

If you enjoy unfiltered takes on culture, science, and scandals, subscribe for more episodes! Check out our books “The Pragmatist’s Guide to Sexuality” and others at https://pragmatist.guide/

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. We are going crazy world with these Epstein leaks.

I swear rich people really love pizza.

Simone Collins: Such a

Malcolm Collins: big

Simone Collins: pizza problem.

Malcolm Collins: That is my big takeaway. I love it. Even after reading these, Simone, the credulous person, she is immediately is like, do I send so many emails about pizza? Yeah. So she goes to her inbox to see how many times she has mentioned pizza in, how, how many was it?

Simone Collins: So in 2025, it, it got a little messed up because we serve pizza at Octavia’s birthday. So not including those, we had 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 emails. No, sorry, eight. Eight. That’s a

Malcolm Collins: suspicious number

Simone Collins: of emails. Well, no,

one was from [00:01:00] Octavian school district, one was from a scientific research paper. One was from an outline from one of our episodes. But it’s like we, we never, we never personally,

Malcolm Collins: don’t have any personal emails.

Simone Collins: Basically in, in, no, in no email from last year did we at any point. Talk about pizza over email, aside from a, a children’s birthday party invite. And the rest of it was just like quoting other people or people sending us emails.

Malcolm Collins: And we have children and aren’t super rich, right? Like we know the demographic.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. No, no, no. Here’s how bad the, the pizza we served in Octavian birthday was cooked in our oven anyway. It wasn’t even like

cooked

Malcolm Collins: in our oven

Simone Collins: Quartered pizza.

Malcolm Collins: No. So the, my favorite thing about this particular Epstein League is it the one guy who like wasn’t on board with the naming system and so everyone is like, Hey, how about that pizza and grape juice we had last night?

And then there’s this one guy who’s like, [00:02:00] I really like the torture video she sent me. I imagine Epstein, it’s like whenever you’re doing something that’s like shady at work and you have to get everyone together and you’re like, okay, you understand we do not email each other about this. Right? And

Simone Collins: then

Malcolm Collins: I really like the fraud we’re doing.

Simone Collins: I love that. I love the part where we hunted people for sport that

Malcolm Collins: love this one, this, this, this one guy who is still somehow, blanked in the, in the emails.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But what we’re gonna go over in this episode are two core questions. The first, and I think more interesting question is the science behind all of this which is, we are, for people who don’t know this actually pretty esteemed researchers in the sex space, was Aila even saying that our research is some of the best out there?

So, because I, I find it really fascinating and one of the biggest findings that we broke [00:03:00] that other people have, have, have found correlary since our breaking it. Is that the wealthier a man gets, the smaller his breast preference. Which if you’re looking at a societally Okay. Way to say you like younger women or potentially even what’s the word, hemophilia, where they’re, you know, teenagers or whatever women.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is the core market that Epstein dealt with. The, we gotta ask why. Why is this a trend? Why does it happen and how do networks of. Predators because in the past everyone who said there are elite networks of sexual predators like PDA files everyone would’ve said, that’s crazy.

You know, you would do that. It’s the, the classic conspiracy theory. And now it’s just like definitionally true. And the government tried to cover it up for a really long time,

Simone Collins: so bad.

It’s so bad. [00:04:00] We’re so back. Pizzagate is so back. You people,

Malcolm Collins: you can’t say that that’s one of the most likely to get you banned things on YouTube.

Simone Collins: Okay. Sorry.

Malcolm Collins: We can, we cannot talk about that. Oh, you don’t know guys. So some higher ups at YouTube really don’t want us talking about that exact word. But what we are going to, I wonder, I wonder why what we’re gonna do is the science of this, because I think it’s very interesting and I mean, for me, I just can’t imagine getting wrapped up in something like that.

I can imagine being into like weird stuff on my own right? But I can’t imagine wanting to do it with friends or entering like a big network of doers that then talk about it offline, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. So I wanna understand what’s going on there. And I say all this where Mar-a-Lago is literally having high profile furry parties.

Now, the rights just embracing [00:05:00] normal. Fricking fetishes these days. They’re like, you know what, furries we, we, we’ve made fun of them. Let’s have a furry party at the Mar-a-Lago. Right? Like all the conservative big ones. You threw these,

Simone Collins: we did it guys say the furries.

Malcolm Collins: Have you seen pictures of this, Simone?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I have. I have. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And then the other thing I wanna cover, because I’ve been genuinely disappointed by the top conservative influencer coverage of this Mm. Is what was real in this drop and what wasn’t real in this drop. Mm-hmm. And Nino and Asma Gold, who I really love, have just dropped the ball in terms of their credulousness in their coverage on this.

And so have a number of, I watch for just a quick summary. If you have heard stuff badged around and you’re not really sure. Oh, what’s likely this, what’s likely that? All of the stuff involving eating babies or torturing people or murdering people,

All of that, [00:06:00] all of that stuff.

Simone Collins: The aforementioned the torture video was great.

Email

Malcolm Collins: except for the torture video was great, but that was him. Oh, except

Simone Collins: for that one.

Malcolm Collins: That wasn’t him actively participating in torture. I’m talking about the all of this stuff that suggests that, not that he had like a collection of inappropriate videos which is, you know, if you’re talking about like depraved internet, Gunnar type individuals.

Even, even the recent leak was the, the conservative black stringer guy had stuff like that, right? I think,

Simone Collins: yeah, I mean, I guess the, the, the line between intense BDSM and beyond that is, is thin.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So I wanted to, that there’s just no good evidence for any of that stuff. Even in the, the, the leaks, the one where they were like on a boat and eating babies.

Right.

Simone Collins: Oh, that, yeah. That

Malcolm Collins: one explicitly said it came from hypnosis. Recovered memories.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It

Malcolm Collins: sounds

Simone Collins: just like a schizo fever dream.

Malcolm Collins: If you have no experience [00:07:00] of if, if you have no experience with psychology and you’ve never taken any classes on, I’ll, I’ll just basically tell you what that means in psychology terms.

It means he made it up.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If, if you’ve been hypnotized and you remembered something,

Malcolm Collins: hypnotized, recovered memories are in, in my instance, there actually isn’t a single known instance of them. Recovering a conformably verifiable memory.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There isn’t a single known instance in all of human history of this working to recover real memories.

Sorry, I wanted to make sure of this, and there’s literally one potential exception in 1976 in the chia bus kidnapping tied to finding a license plate. Other than that, there is no instance ever in human history where this worked.

Malcolm Collins: it is a a mechanism for implant [00:08:00] memories. And these are exactly the type of schizo memories that somebody would’ve had implanted in them, especially if you look at the other things that he remembers about his life.

Like apparently everyone he knew growing up was griping him and stuff like that. It sounds like he just started to, one, everyone I know is griping me. And then two let’s also say that the famous people were doing it so I sound more important. Right. Secondly a lot of the other stuff like the ones with Gillian Maxwell, like tying somebody up and shocking them.

That one sounds like that could just be normal. PDSM re Yeah. And then two yeah,

Simone Collins: that’s just a good time people,

Malcolm Collins: it’s, it’s from a random report from somebody that was unconfirmed, right? Yeah. It’s the same with the, the girl who was tortured as a s slave. Keep in mind that the person who wrote the book about Epstein, you know, the posthumous book, also described herself as an S slave, even though she very clearly was not what we would standardly consider an S slave.

And

Simone Collins: [00:09:00] there are actual, like many, many, many, many, many people who are in s slavery. So,

Malcolm Collins: so it, it is what I’m saying here is that I could see somebody else using the term incorrectly in, in, in this instance. And with the killing stuff, the fact that we have no body, no likely body, no like a a again, that just seems.

Un un plasible to me. The Elon connections are tentative from our, because people, you know, know now, we’ve had personal interactions with him. ‘cause the New York Times leaked it. He seemed to take personal pride in inve evading e Epstein and sort of sticking it to Epstein. And you can see how long he’s been trying to get the files released.

Simone Collins: Well, and I think it, it’s all, it also needs to be said, and this is really clear from mainstream journalistic reporting on how Epstein worked. The way he worked was to take anyone who was in a position of power and influence and put them into positions where he could blackmail them into doing what he wanted, which often involved extorting [00:10:00] money from them or making them do other things.

Either by, you know, saying they were gonna, he was gonna release really embarrassing things. So he would even, you know, he would try to even just through. Connection or, you know, I’m gonna send this person across your path in a way that’s gonna make you look bad. It’s kind of how Nick Fuentes used to photo bomb people, you know, to like, try to get them canceled back when that was possible to do.

Epstein did a much more sophisticated and much more dangerous version of that. Or maybe you’d hire him as an accountant and then, you know, he kind of said he was gonna handle some things and you kind of looked the other way. ‘cause you, it sounded really great and you didn’t wanna know. What he was doing because it, you know, you knew that it might be a little bit dubious and then suddenly you discover that he’s basically embezzling money from you, but you can’t not let him do it because what he did with your finances, with apparently, you know, with, with your tat oversight would put you in jail.

So that’s how he works. Yeah. That,

Malcolm Collins: that was his operation. So he

Simone Collins: intentionally

Malcolm Collins: would word emails in [00:11:00] ways that were meant to try to inc criminalize other people,

Simone Collins: incriminate. And well, and, and he would intentionally try to build connections with people and write about building connections with people to build this network.

Yeah. And so non consensually people got associated with him

Malcolm Collins: with the Elon emails. Like the biggest smoking gun you have is the one like, Hey, I, I’ll come to your island on whatever night the craziest party is. But it doesn’t appear that he went. And it’s important to note that when you’re talking about rich people like this, we have personally had.

Meetings confirmed with Elon that got blown off like two days beforehand or something like that. Like, th this is, when you’re talking about somebody of that level of wealth confirming something and then not showing up is an over 50% of the time type of thing. Especially if it’s something social like an island party or something like that.

It seems very likely Elon just blew him off. So I, I I see nothing there. There was nothing additional on Trump that was meaningful. More stuff on how much Epstein hated Trump and how much Trump hated Epstein. He really

Simone Collins: did. [00:12:00] Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There was unconfirmed allegations against Trump, but these allegations have been around the public for a long time.

And in terms of people our side wants to get like Zohan Mond, they’re like, he’s in the Epstein files. Not really. His mom was, he had a, had a screening for one of her movies and that was listed in the Epstein files. Like Epstein had it at one of his estates or something. And so she and him would’ve been at the same party, like, Ooh, spooky.

And I need you to keep in mind when you’re like, oh, people don’t just make stuff up to try to associate themselves with random, famous people who are sort of doing the rounds. We had a 20 minute crash out about how we are vampires who practice dark magic on the number one podcast in the world about us, on the Joe Rogan Podcast.

See our episode about that if you want, like when you are on the tongue of the public. People have crash outs about you. And and the cool thing about that one is it [00:13:00] pulled from a lot of real sources. I thought he did a good job researching it. I, I like that crash out, right? Like, that was like a, okay.

Yeah. Kurt

Simone Collins: Metzger gets your gold star of approval.

Malcolm Collins: Cold star. Yeah.

Simone Collins: No. What’s, what’s hilarious is I feel like Kurt Metzger’s take on us was, no, actually it’s not. I feel, I know for a fact that Kurt Metzger’s take on us on the Joe Rogan experience was more accurate than Matt Bernstein’s appear. Take on us like hour long, I think hour plus long take on us in.

The a bit fruity podcast, which is insane to me because presumably he did research. He did an entire podcast just about us. Kurt Metzger just mentioned us offhand after like two hours of conspiracy theorizing and he got more right

Malcolm Collins: stuff and it was all closer than normal. Progressive talking points about us.

Simone Collins: Isn’t that insane? What even why? But I feel like, yeah, we’re in the era where the conspiracy theories are more correct than the mainstream leftist. What I’m saying is

Malcolm Collins: conservatives expect more of their conspiracy theorists.

Simone Collins: We [00:14:00] do higher standard, higher standard.

Malcolm Collins: It was progressives. You just say the narrative and nobody thinks to question you and you won’t get in trouble if you’re wrong.

If the person’s a bad, naughty person,

Simone Collins: apparently.

Malcolm Collins: But I guess I went on too far of a tangent with what’s real and what’s not. Okay. So what is real in the latest drop? Like what’s actually,

Simone Collins: what is likely real? Again, this is all conjecture on our part. We’re not experts,

Malcolm Collins: we’re

Simone Collins: spiders.

Malcolm Collins: The big likely ones are more stuff on the print.

It appears that Prince was a bigger part of the operation than had previously been believed.

Simone Collins: Prince Andrew.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And he really used the fact that Andrew was at a party to try to get other famous people to go and to legitimize the parties.

Simone Collins: That totally makes sense. Absolutely. 100%.

Malcolm Collins: That was his lure and authentication mechanism as much as the girls were.

Simone Collins: And then this is this, I know also provably, this is how elite society meetings go. When you invite elite people to an event, the top hook that, that is used, and this is across different networks, groups meetings, conferences, [00:15:00] is who else is going you know, will I be able to see this other person that I want to know?

And it doesn’t seem like there’s a cap to someone’s level of money or fame. And their excitement about meeting some other famous people like you don’t instantly get to just meet or DM anyone else who’s famous. If you yourself are famous, famous people still want access to other famous people. And so those who, who manipulate them and connect them with each other, which included Jeffrey Epstein use them as lures to catch more.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And, and, and it works really. I mean, especially that’s, this is one of the reasons why I, I was gonna say, I’ll go into why the PDA networks grow as soon as you’ve been implicated and something even edge case like that. Mm-hmm. Now all of a sudden you sort of need to go along with it and be really nice to the person.

And the way that Epstein did it, to explain to you why it’s so nefarious, ‘cause I pointed this out in previous videos, our society [00:16:00] has a very, very bad trait, which we should not do, which is conflating hemophilia with. PBA files. Okay. If you’re not familiar, hemophilia is like a 17-year-old, 16-year-old girl or something like that.

Mm-hmm. Now, Epstein can send to your room a 17 or 16-year-old girl without you knowing that this girl is 17 or 16 years old. She grew up in Russia. She lived a hard life. She may look a bit older. I mean, you’ve seen the pictures of Gen Z these

Simone Collins: days. Also a in terms of we, we, even if we’re talking about the legality or illegality of it depending on, and keep in mind, Epstein’s parties, events, the network, et cetera, highly international, these things are happening not always in the United States

.

I don’t know, Malcolm, if you could pull up an age of consent map, but when someone first showed one to me, I was kind of floored by how low the age of consent is in other countries.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it was really low. It’s like 14 or something in a lot of

Simone Collins: years. Yeah. So I mean, Epstein, you know, could have been hosting a party in, in some other country and [00:17:00] sending girls over and it was totally legal, like nothing bad happened, but, so while it’s creepy.

It’s not illegal in those instances

Malcolm Collins: either Then, then the way this works is he sends over somebody who you don’t have a clear way to know, and you don’t think that somebody’s sending an underage person to your room or something like that.

Simone Collins: Right? Yeah. Or also like you’re a dude, you’re drunk and you’re at a party.

Like there’s a point point coming on. People don’t say no. Yeah. It’s just, I think this is really well demonstrated by those various research studies, which probably wouldn’t pass an ethics pass, an ethics board now, where they had female researchers just walk up to random guys on a college campus and was like, Hey, you wanna go?

Like,

Malcolm Collins: yeah,

Simone Collins: would you like to have sex with me? And the boys would be, no, no questions asked. Just like, yes. I think even wealthy men are like other

Malcolm Collins: big, real one that is the most embarrassing, most horrible thing ever is the Bill Gates one.

Simone Collins: Oh gosh.

Malcolm Collins: Like, but for people who haven’t heard, I’ll be quick about it because it’s so embarrassing.

He asked how he could get antibiotics to [00:18:00] slip to his wife secretly after attracting a STD from a Russian hooker. And that is the most embarrassing leak I have ever. It actually made me feel bad for Bill Gates. And I know this is horrible ‘cause Bill Gates is being a sleaze ball in this entire situation.

But

Simone Collins: I was like, well also not being resourceful, I mean, like we have. They’re expired now, but we have entire boxes full of antibiotics that we picked up in Peru. ‘cause you can just buy them over the counter in most cases.

Malcolm Collins: And

Simone Collins: it’s also lot, he could just get it. He could just get the antibiotics he needed.

He didn’t need to ask you

Malcolm Collins: give me pills that I take every day without really questioning. Like, I’ve been like, what are these new ones? And you’re like, I don’t know. I freaking do, do. I’m

Simone Collins: like, take them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, take the pills. And, and it’s the same as me and you. If I just came to you and was like, Hey, take these pills for a week.

And

Simone Collins: you’re like, you’re like, sure.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know. And I’d be like, just take ‘em Simone. Like come on. What? Sure. But like that, that’s already a breakdown in communication right [00:19:00] there. Although maybe we are way too trusting of each other now that I think about it. That you’re just like, Malcolm New pills. I read some study.

You don’t, you don’t need to confirm. Your doctor said so you don’t

Simone Collins: forget Malcolm. I chose the bear. Maybe you really should be question

Malcolm Collins: anyway. Yeah. You chance the bear. Right? So, the Bill Gates thing. Super embarrassing.

Okay. I was wrong on this one. The Bill Gates smoking gun was an unsent email in Epstein’s. Angry Unsent email list, drafts list. So it’s not as strong of a smoking gun as I thought because Bill Gates didn’t send it. Bill Gates didn’t confirm it. He didn’t even receive it. Now, it would be very weird to write an unsent email like this if this was entirely fictional or wrong.

Uh, but Epstein specialized in trying to get other, like to create. The interpretation of dirt on other people, [00:20:00] so I’ll mark this as maybe less a hundred percent than I originally thought.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry, where was I going? But yes, the point being is he gets you the first time with somebody you don’t know is underage.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then it’s like, well, then you have to go again. And then this other time you’re at a party and oh no, somebody is, you know, something more egregious is happening and you saw it and you have to pretend you’re okay with it ‘cause you’re at the party on an island. And you don’t wanna pretend to be, you know, and a lot of these people grew up nerds and stuff like that, so they’re like, I guess I’m okay with this now.

Mm-hmm. So that, that’s how you get, you know, looped into this stuff in, in regards to the science of like wealthy men and why they are more likely to likely this stuff mm-hmm. Than non wealthy men.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I’ll quickly go into this for our audience. ‘cause it, it is fascinating from an evolutionary perspective.

So

Simone Collins: I mean, and then again, these are our theories. As to why this would be the case.

Malcolm Collins: The data that we pulled on this was really striking when we pulled the data, so I’ll pull it up. You’re, you’re acting like it’s just a theory. Wealthy men prefer smaller breasts. This pattern is even more [00:21:00] striking than we anticipated in our data.

Not a single man in the wealthiest category of those taking our survey reported preferring a breast size above average with around half preferring small breasts. So around half of wealthy men preferred the smallest breast size selectable in a breast selection list. Our survey respondents who reported being in the second highest well category reported preferring breasts, small breasts, but at a rate of 17% and a robust 84% Preferred breasts of average are smaller.

So if you’re, if you’re wealthy, but not in the super category of wealth, still 84% are preferring smaller than average bass breasts. Contrast that was the lowest category of income. We are only. 5% of men said they preferred the smallest category of breasts. Now, keep in mind, what was it? Over 50% in the wallies category, 5% in the lowest category.

And so the question is, what’s what’s going on here? Right? Like, what’s what? Because you can’t, a wall breast kind of know to not say that they’re interested in morphologically youthful women, right? So they’re gonna have some [00:22:00] other way of saying that, and this was an easy way for us to track that.

So, what, what does that, why, why would you have this preference? If you are a male, you are in a very interesting position in terms of what arouses you, right? Which is to say, typically in a species what you are going to have aroused, you are traits that are morphologically unique to the opposite gender of your species.

And in humans, what are the traits that are morphologically unique to human females? It is breasts, it is hip to waist ratio. It is a slightly larger butt unless you are African, and then it’s a much larger butt because there’s a morphological difference there. And then in some unique groups like the cosign, you have other morphologically gender unique things, but generally a breast, breast and waist to hip ratio.

The problem with that is as a male, you are not only optimizing for a morphologically. Female partner, right? [00:23:00] Like the most female possible. You have a second thing that you’re optimizing for, which is a length of her fertility window, because that determines how many kids you can have. All right? Women with the highest length fertility window are going to be in the category.

You know, I, I would think like your, your best fertility years are what, like two years after puberty or something like that. So that’s gonna be like 16, 15. I think 16 is probably like the sweet spot, right? And then this explains why a lot of countries have like 14, it’s the younger age for consent

Now I need to clarify that the absolute peak for getting pregnant, like conceivably is early twenties. This is the peak for if you’re trying to maximize your fertility window.

Now.

I, I don’t think that’s good. I think that kids develop at a slower rate in modern society. And so while I think that you likely were not actually causing psychological trauma or damage when this was happening, you know, when 14-year-old, a [00:24:00] 15-year-old arranged marriages were happening in a medieval context, I think a kid in a modern context is certainly gonna have developmental issues tied to that because they’re going to be, well, I mean, they do technically develop faster these days because of the chemicals that they have.

I mean, girls go through puberty earlier, but I think mentally they develop a lot slower.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t actually know the reasoning behind the different ages, but I do know that in terms of health complications they, they are higher. When you are uniquely young.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. When you’re like very young, like right after puberty.

I did not say. Right. I mean like a few. But anyway, the point here being is that if you are unga, bunga, caveman, I don’t care about ethics. I wanna have as many babies as possible. Which is like what you genes are.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right.

Simone Collins: And if you know that you have resources sufficient to care for your.

Partners as well. So you don’t need to make sure that they have excess fat stores.

Malcolm Collins: Well, well, we will get to that in a second because you also see this important individuals, they prefer fatter, larger breasts. Again, you, you see this as well. Mm-hmm. So you, you as a male are [00:25:00] pulled between two things. One is being sure that they are a female, which is larger breasts and wider waist to hip ratio.

Mm-hmm. And two is being sure that they are younger, which is smaller breasts, smaller waist to hip ratio. So you’re, you’re dealing with. Two opposite patterns here, right? Mm-hmm. And what I hypothesize is that if you are extremely well resourced, you are better off optimizing for the secondary pattern, right?

Optimizing for the longer fertility window, because you was the, with the other guys, you’re basically like, okay, I want to ensure that she has fat stores, that she’s healthy, that we can make kids right now, and that those kids will be healthy if made right now. Mm-hmm. And we’ll get maybe four kids or something like that, right?

Mm-hmm. For wealthy guy, it’s, well, I wanna aim for like 20 kids, right? Yeah. Like, I wanna aim for like 17 kids, right? Like, yeah.

Simone Collins: [00:26:00] Long-term investments like the Yeah. They’re willing to

Malcolm Collins: I can afford those 17 kids, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I can afford those 20 kids. Right. So you, you would have a biological benefit from having this dimorphic preference in arousal patterns.

Mm-hmm. Which will explain why and you actually see this in other parts of the data which is to say that wealthier men, in terms of how they do mate displays and this was interesting for, for women being less wealthy, that we found in our data is that they prefer more stereotypically masculine men.

EG, the like wood chopper, lumberjack car mechanic type guy. Right. Like very, very buffin masculine.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Whereas wealthy women. Prefer, well, like metrosexual, vampire, like looking guy. Fair enough. You know,

Simone Collins: that’s, I didn’t know about that. That’s very interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and you also see this was males males prefer [00:27:00] more like if, if you look at like what are other like gender dimorphic displays that a woman could make, right?

Mm-hmm. Well, she could grow out her nails super long. Yeah. She could grow super long hair.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Think about the trashy low class women who like trashy low class men. Like they’ve got these super long nails, they’ve got these super large butt displays. They’ve got these really long hair.

Simone Collins: Yikes. Oh

Malcolm Collins: no.

And then consider the type of woman that say like, Elon goes after like a Grimes or something like that. You know, you’re looking at a smaller breast, shorter hair more of a sort of like. I, I, I guess I, I, I’d say the, the really, really classy look which can come off as a little boyish and has throughout recent history the, the very, very, like wealthy high-end woman typically comes off as a little puckish, I guess is the word I’d use.

You know, I’m, I’m thinking puck from the, you know, the, [00:28:00] the play, right? Like,

Simone Collins: oh yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And if you look at and

Simone Collins: the play amid Summer Night’s Dream

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Marry a woman who, or go after a woman who doesn’t look puckish it immediately. Other people call it out. They’re like, that is low class or weird looking, right?

Like when you see

Jeff Bezos, who’s his current partner, who looks like a street walking prostitute you immediately look at this and you’re like. Something is, something is off about that. But consider that Jeff Bezos is also breaking the other norm that we typically see with wealthy men, which is he is not going after the more ife, elite vampire look.

Either he’s going after the Buff Weightlifter look. If you look at another person who breaks this trend very famously as

Donald Trump, right? Like, he doesn’t break it as extremely as Jeff Bezos does, but a lot of people comment that Donald Trump. is a poor person’s idea of what a rich person wants to be like.

Right? Like, and [00:29:00] I think that he’s that way in everything from the way he architecturally does his house to the way that he does anything else. Right. But yeah. And this, this, I, I think, shows. An instinctual reaction of other people that, oh, they don’t really fit the pattern, but if you imagine like a, a Bruce Wayne Gala or something like that. Right. Yeah. And I’ve been to lots of like charity galas and stuff like that.

It is very common among upper class women to accentuate sort of short hair is very common among upper class hairstyles. In fact it wasn’t until we started appealing to a mainstream conservative audience that Simone Cut grew out her hair. Before that, because the core audience we were, everyone knows we, we did the circuit on like the secret societies and all of that.

It was fairly rare in those events for women to have longer hair. And so, you know, fitting in, that’s the crowd that we’re into. I, I personally find shorter hair more attractive on women. She kept her hair shorter. And then. When we [00:30:00] went to other of like, when we started appealing to you guys, who was it?

Brian Johnson was like, you should grow out your hair to appeal to it. More standard.

Simone Collins: No, Brian, Brian Kaplan.

Malcolm Collins: Brian Kaplan. Yeah. Brian Kaplan said,

Simone Collins: Brian Johnson don’t die. Brian Kaplan, selfish reasons to have more kids. Immigration is good. That kind

Malcolm Collins: of thing. Okay. Okay. So I’m pointing out that yes, our image is tailored for you guys.

I’m about to do a major image change, which I’m excited about as soon as the stuff gets in from messy to fit Simone’s more medieval style. I’ve learned, and this is really sad, I thought about doing an entire episode on it, is that my look right now, which is sort of the, I call it the Mr. Rogers look, which is just the, the nice normal guy look

Simone Collins: spitter.

Malcolm Collins: Unfortunately, it’s been co-opted by lesbians.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: And I get too many comments,

Simone Collins: whatever. How dare they. They also took the leather jacket.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. So I also wear the leather jacket. It co-opted by lesbian.

Simone Collins: You can’t wear a leather jacket anymore.

You can’t wear a sweater anymore. Like what can you wear? Honestly,

Malcolm Collins: what I, I, I was trying to come off as [00:31:00] is is is just like the nice dad look. Right. Like the Mr. Rogers look. Right? Yeah.

Simone Collins: And

Malcolm Collins: nope,

Simone Collins: without looking dumpy or s Sports Fanny.

Malcolm Collins: I think Ellen DeGeneres is the one who messed it all up. You know, crew cut sweater, you know.

Yeah, glasses. Everyone just immediately is like, oh, not Mr. Rogers. You’re Ellen DeGeneres.

Simone Collins: Oh, I, I was thinking more who’s the woman who is sure about Russiagate? Rachel Meadow.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, that’s why I was thinking Rachel Maddow. Well, Ellen is Ellen DeGeneres another one who does that look

Simone Collins: kind of, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I, I was thinking Rachel Maddow in my head when I said that.

Simone Collins: yeah. She and chunky glasses and short hair. Absolutely. Like. If I squint it, it looks a little, a little, little alchemy.

Malcolm Collins: But the point that I’m making here is that this exaggerated, like gender display is something that like societally we’ve known for a long time. Poor people prefer e exaggerated [00:32:00] gender dimorphic figures.

Mm-hmm. And wealthy people of boast, genders prefer more androgynous features.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And this could be an overlap, like women accidentally, ex ex displaying part of the male. Very interesting thing we did in our study on this is how much people of each gender get turned on imagining themselves as the opposite gender.

And wealthy women very frequently get turned on by imagining themselves.

Simone Collins: That’s true. That did show up in our survey data. That really surprised me.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But interestingly. Poor males frequently get turned on by imagining themselves as females. So just fun data stuff here. I just love science. I love it.

I love the data. It’s fun. It’s fun to think about, like, why, why do you see this weird pattern? Why do you see this weird pattern? And as we’ve pointed out before, having one of these networks where like you are in the network and now all of a sudden you can’t tell anyone and you feel you have some sort of a connection with everyone else in this network, even if you were brought into it sort of [00:33:00] clandestinely.

Mm-hmm. Well, now of a sudden you have reasons to do, like if you meet someone in public, right? Somebody comes up for a job or an appointment or something and you’ve got one of two names, one of them, you know, from your parties, one of them you don’t know from your parties. You pick the name, you know, from your parties of, of course.

‘cause that’s safer, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Everyone prefers a known entity. Trust isn’t necessarily about liking, it’s about predicting. And the more exposure you have to someone, typically, the more you can predict them and therefore

Malcolm Collins: more you can trust. So now all of a sudden, everyone in this wider network moves up, moves up, moves up, moves up.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now let’s talk about the torture stuff, right? This, this is interesting as well.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: This was another thing that we found in terms of wealthy people. Wealthy high power men had more in terms of the aggression, dominance, pathway of arousal which makes sense. You know, you you’re more likely to be a raider, which is where that pathway is most relevant.

Absolutely. One, the things you need to remember about somebody, because the, I really like the torture videos that [00:34:00] freaked a lot of people out, right? Because they were like, why is this name black down stone? Should we be looking into this? And then people looked at who could it possibly be? Mm-hmm. There are three real candidates based on the time that the sender of that was in China.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Because the email didn’t include something about like, see you in China or It was great seeing

Malcolm Collins: you China. No, I’m in China now. I’m coming back to the US on these days. Okay. That the, the one of them was like a conservative, like Lindsey Graham or something, but he has no connection to Epstein, so unlikely.

Another one was some UK politician, the one who stepped down maybe,

Simone Collins: which one Who stepped down?

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I think the most likely one was Bill Gates.

Simone Collins: Well, and I recall there was some other email where they were like, was thinking about inviting, blanked out name to Epstein I Island, but basically like they lack the discretion or emotional intelligence or something that, which could be the same person who was like, Ooh, the torture.

I

Malcolm Collins: do torture.

Simone Collins: And like, I think maybe it, they, yeah, they had to kind of be careful about it.

Malcolm Collins: I can see, oh, that

Simone Collins: island where we do the, you know, [00:35:00] beep. Yeah. Hey mom,

Malcolm Collins: how long it, it immediately getting on air? Like going up like kid Rock did, after going to the Bohemian Grove, I remember, I’m always very buttoned about the Bohemian Grove.

He immediately does like this huge speech about the Bohemian Grove for like Vanity Fair or something like immediately. Oh, he went

Simone Collins: straight to the mainstream media about

Malcolm Collins: it? Yeah. He or might have been what, what is that? Rolling Stones. It might have been like a Rolling Stones. It’s like, did you not like get any of the memos about this

place?

I’m

Simone Collins: sure he was very enthused to never be invited back though. So he was,

Malcolm Collins: no, he got super, um. I can’t tell any of the stories about what happened to him there. Uh, No. He was not interested in not being invited back.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Uh, Drama. I, I, I’ll, I’ll point it this way. If you guys are like, the drama was not about anything sexual.

It is not about anything that you, the [00:36:00] general public would find scandalous. It is about

I wish I could say it because it’s so comedic to a mainstream conservative audience. You’d be like, wait, that’s what caused drama there.

Simone Collins: Damn, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I

Simone Collins: tease us.

Malcolm Collins: How do I I think. In high society when you’re used to hanging out with a lot of low society conservatives, you can forget how many there are.

And

Simone Collins: Oh

no,

Malcolm Collins: that can cause drama. I, I gotta cut that out. I can’t have that in there. That’s way too specific.

Simone Collins: Oh God. Oh, man.

That makes sense though.

Malcolm Collins: But the point being is, is at the grove itself, none of this stuff is happening. It’s, oh, and I even got up. If

Simone Collins: only

Malcolm Collins: I’ll describe like what does actually happen at The Grove. I got into with a number of people on like the top council of the Grove. Like we got together and we planned to [00:37:00] prank together.

So this is like me. Pranking was taught people at the Grove and we dressed up as deer and went through where there’s like security camera footage area

Simone Collins: oh, like, like hunting cams or animal cams?

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. It was like the, the cams for like people trying to sneak into the park or something, to like mess with like the guards or whatever.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: okay. This is, this is the type of, it’s the type of prank that somebody in a 1920s or thirties secret society on, like Harvard would’ve thought was hilarious.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That’s, or like boy Scouts, that’s, it’s like, it’s a little, it’s a little too adorable.

Malcolm Collins: It’s, yeah. It is, it is a, it is adorable old man pranks because that’s what it is.

It’s a place full of old men.

Simone Collins: Oh no. That’s too wholesome.

Malcolm Collins: It is, it is not. Whatever you’re imagining. It it, I mean obviously there’s a lot of gay stuff that goes on there that’s been reported since what, what president reported

Simone Collins: that Isn’t that Nixon,

Malcolm Collins: so I’m not leaking that. Yeah, Nixon. But like, that makes sense when you have a bunch of [00:38:00] like, wealthy conservatives meeting in, in secret that’s that’s

Simone Collins: without their wives.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, that is, that is the, as far as the salacious of environments like that go they are not these terrible, horrible things. And keep in mind on the Kid Rock stuff that I mentioned anything I heard there was just hearsay, I don’t know, idea of it directly. So, you know, don’t even say, oh, this definitely happened.

It’s

Simone Collins: allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly,

Malcolm Collins: allegedly the rumors, nope. The, the, the, the point I am making is that you can build these networks that are like actually secret, like the Epstein Network actually doing bad things. And these can be used to skyrocket the career of everyone involved with these networks.

We used this to explain in an episode that we had to do for fans only because they had audio issues. In the second part, why the Trump administration is, has so many gay conservatives in it. There was a, a, a quote from like a conservative female influencer that was like, oh, I was really excited to hook my friends up with some new incoming members of the administration, you [00:39:00] know, now that well, they’re gay and they’re all gay.

And that, that’s happened because you can get sort of these networks where, well, we all know each other from the gay party and we have some degree of solidarity and, you know, you get invited to the party.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So yeah.

Simone Collins: Well, I think a, a key distinguishing factor, I, I think between. Elite social networks that are innocuous or just coordinating and maybe a little bit insider trading, but not super evil demonic is.

How the influence is built. There’s sort of the carrot and the stick, and Epstein definitely built a stick based network built around blackmail or literally implicating people in things that were federal offenses. And we’ve seen the

Malcolm Collins: latest leak. Him threatening people with leaks.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That there, yeah, he’s, he’s threatening people with stuff that could get them in, like ruin their reputation.

Which, I mean, bill Gates spent what, billions of dollars on his public reputation. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Trying to look like a good boy.

Simone Collins: They’re

Malcolm Collins: his no work [00:40:00] was like, can you imagine how much money he spent, how much effort he spent to try to look like a decent human being to the general public? And I’m like, Simone, it’s always the people who are at their core, actually pretty evil, who do that.

I was like, someone, one of our core jobs in terms of media and everything like that is playing the villain. And yet

Simone Collins: it’s so much more fun that way. Oh.

Speaker: . This town isn’t big enough for two super villains. Oh, you are a villain. All right. Just not a super one. Yeah. What’s the difference?

Speaker 2: Presentation.

Malcolm Collins: Like, we don’t have these big skeletons in our closet or anything like that. Like

Simone Collins: no skeletons.

Malcolm Collins: I find the thought of sleeping was a hooker, like actively disgusting.

Right? Like, it’s not that I wouldn’t sleep with another woman, she would just be a wealthy, powerful woman. If I did like, and I was gonna cheat on my wife, I just don’t wanna

Simone Collins: sleep. Or a virgin

Malcolm Collins: or, yeah. Yeah. I don’t wanna sleep with low class women. Right?

Simone Collins: Like, well, no. Yeah. I mean, well you also just seem to have an aversion to body count, which I think is, [00:41:00] is probably the primary reason.

That’s another thing

Malcolm Collins: I have a big

Simone Collins: aversion to. Yeah. Yeah. And that, like, that’s a, that’s just a an aversion that some men have, which just mean that like no matter how powerful a man gets, I think that there is going to be a certain number, which actually could be another reason why a common denominator did end up being young women.

Was that. Those were like at, they at least looked less past

Malcolm Collins: lower body count. Yeah.

Simone Collins: So, yeah. So if there were men there who, like maybe there were men who were super attracted to extra young looking women, maybe there were also men there who were like really against what appeared to be high body count call girls, even if they were very elite.

Right. So like, I, it could be just a good you know, like at, at a at a party, you, you might choose to serve. Salsa and chips because everyone likes salsa and chips. Like it’s inoffensive. Who’s gonna hate it? Right? And, and maybe, you know, chips and they, they’re the, they’re the chips and salsas of, of girls.

Because, you know,

Malcolm Collins: but one of the [00:42:00] points I was making here that’s important to remember is the torture thing, right? Like, people are like, oh, you know,

Simone Collins: the torture video was great. Why I never get over that.

Malcolm Collins: Bill Gates, why would he be into something like that? Right. You know?

Simone Collins: Are you so sure?

Allegedly, why, why is your guess? Which is completely based on nothing. And we’re not saying anything about Bill Gates don’t come for us. Why do you think Bill Gates is a can?

Malcolm Collins: Because we have the times that he was in China and the timing that he was coming back to the

Simone Collins: United States. Oh, okay. Wait, so yeah, you said there were three people, so it was Bill Gates, the, the UK politician or,

Malcolm Collins: One random conservative politician in the US who has no known connection to Epstein.

So I can basically rule him out.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So it’s, it is basically either Bill Gates or this UK politician.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Ouch.

Malcolm Collins: Or you could argue if it was

Simone Collins: one of them, it’s just some random who, you know.

Malcolm Collins: No, or you could argue if it was one of them, then why did all the other embarrassing stuff about them get released?

It was somebody who has the ability to still keep their name covered up. So

Simone Collins: it’s so good for them.

Malcolm Collins: But, but the point being [00:43:00] is that a lot of these people like your Bill Gates of the world, you know, there are ancestors who raided in pillage still had more surviving offspring than the ones who didn’t like, I think

Simone Collins: yeah,

Malcolm Collins: people get very blinded by the nerdy look or even nerdy affectation like glasses.

Like people think, oh, this means that I would, would I point out that I actually. Phenotypically look like.

Simone Collins: Clavicular.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like if you look at my actual face without glasses, I look like I could be related to ula, right? I wear glasses specifically to hide that I look like this.

Okay. My audience and my branding is nerd. I don’t want to look like this in my nerd branding. I’m, I’m an anime guy, okay? Who reads Korean manga about the historic romances, right? Like I don. Want to, to look like that or, or jump out with that brand. My brand is wholesome dad, right? Or, or, or, we are nerdy guy.

Simone Collins: By the way, if, if you are one of our [00:44:00] paid subscribers on Substack or Patreon, you can get Malcolm’s full list of recommended Korean Romance manga on web tunes. So you don’t have to look for yourself. You can, you can just go to that. It would be random.

Malcolm Collins: But what I’m putting is a lot of people see a quick stereotype in somebody like Bill Gates and they assume, oh, his ancestors wouldn’t have had these evolutionary pressures on them or had these kinds of preferences built in, into sort of the genetic lottery.

Well,

Simone Collins: but also, like anyone who’s gonna Bill Gates biography knows that he’s, he’s famously quite aggressive actually. But I don’t know why people. A lot of assume because he’ll wear like a sweater vest and he looks a little dumpy.

Malcolm Collins: Again, it’s, it’s, it’s it’s branding, right? Like it’s, it’s branding as not an aggressive person.

If you look at Elon’s old branding, for example, like, not, not Elon circa 2026, but Elon circa, let’s say 2015, he looked incredibly nerdy except this was the period where he was having fist fights with his brother in like the middle of the office, right? Like, [00:45:00] I people are very bad at, at judging phenotypical aggression in males when basically glasses or stereotypes come into the picture.

Mm-hmm. Which I think is, is, is, is one of the flaws on the right. You can’t judge a lot about a person from their face. We’ve gone over this, look at our video chronology as back baby. But you have to be able to edit out the glasses or the sweater before you make that judgment. And a lot of people just really struggle to do that.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I, I’m, I’m really excited. I haven’t done the research yet, but I’m really excited to look into this to see if there’s some portion of the population that literally you, you know, that those disguise costumes. It’s like a fake nose and glasses that look like these, and a mustache. If like, that actually works on a certain portion of the population.

Like where did he go? How, like, you know when, when you put a mask on in front of a toddler, they’re like, where’s my mom? You know, they just freak out. I feel like some people maybe never lose that, or they never develop. I remember

Malcolm Collins: the first time one of our [00:46:00] infants saw me with wet hair and they absolutely freaked

Simone Collins: out.

Were like, lost their minds. Yes. Who? Yes,

Malcolm Collins: it’s a deformed version of Daddy. But the final thing I wanna go into here is the pizza labels. Because I think that we may have discounted a previous instance that we can’t really talk about that much. A little too out of hand, but I can’t talk about it at all.

Might do it on a weekend episode.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But these, these are from the Epstein files. And a lot of people know that pizza is alleged to be used in some PDA file rings as code for children. Famously, well, specifically

Simone Collins: cheese pizza. Yeah, that’s

Malcolm Collins: Well, and well, what’s important to note is cheese pizza actually doesn’t appear once in the Epstein files.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And so the thought is maybe it stands instead for paid sex workers instead of,

Malcolm Collins: well, he would use the words pizza and grape soda.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Frequently. Which is weird ‘cause nobody has pizza and grape soda at a party.

Simone Collins: Well, it’s weird. Like I, I, I don’t, I don’t know when I’ve last seen grape [00:47:00] soda in a, in a grocery store.

It didn’t occur to me until I was going through this. I was like, why is he using grape soda as the code word? And I was like, oh yeah, whatever. We talk about R on YouTube, we always have to call it grape. That’s what he’s talking about. He’s talking about someone they can grape.

Malcolm Collins: But let’s go over this.

Simone Collins: Right? Where are they getting it? Like if they, if they actually were getting any,

Malcolm Collins: This is better than a Chinese cookie. Exclamation mark, see attached. Let’s go for pizza and grape soda again. No one else can understand. Go. No. Now that is not what you say about pizza. Real pizza.

That doesn’t No, that’s not,

Simone Collins: no. Yeah. If you’re, if you’re gushing about it, you’re like, man, Zachary’s deep dish is unbelievable. The sauce. I don’t know what they put in it, but it’s probably

Malcolm Collins: like, yeah, you would talk about something about the pizza that

Simone Collins: made it unbelievable. Yeah. The best crust ever. I think it’s just pie crust with like, you know, [00:48:00] oh

Malcolm Collins: God.

You wouldn’t just say pizza and grape soda again. Okay, let’s go further. Spoof on chandelier. The video I sent you was the amazing little girl dance, is what this is titled. Totally loved it.

Simone Collins: This might be another tone deaf person, little

Malcolm Collins: Girl Dance.

Simone Collins: Right.

Malcolm Collins: So the, the video, the, in the title of this email, the video I sent you about the amazing Little Girl dance, totally loved it.

And this isn’t a reply to it, by the way. Dot, dot do pizza party was great. Exclamation mark. We had a lot of fun. Stayed late. We all slept in yesterday morning. Your night was good. So he stayed over after a pizza party with a bunch of wealthy people?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t think so.

Simone Collins: No? Mm-hmm. No. No.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Next here. Pizza time exclamation mark. Thank you. We love to have blink with [00:49:00] us. He is too cute. Excl Mark. Excl. Mark. Have a great week. Xo. Xo. Thanks for taking the boys for pizza. Blink was sad. He had to leave the fun. Hope you have a great time skiing. Be safe.

Simone Collins: Oh, that sounds, I mean, taking the boys for pizza, that sounds like something.

Malcolm Collins: This sounds more

Simone Collins: a soccer mom would do you know that, that one I’m okay with. It’s

Malcolm Collins: more plausible.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The other one, but I like that we can say that like the other ones seem implausible. This one seems plausible actually.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I mean, there’s some things in the past that we cannot refer to about, like, say pizza related. You, you, you forgot your pizza related map. You know, there are certain things that just are, don’t make sense, but there are other things that I’m like, yeah, that’s normal. Like pizza, disgusting relation to a soccer game.

Totally plausible. Pizza and soccer are like socks and shoes, but other things here. [00:50:00]

Malcolm Collins: And then there’s a lot where you can’t tell

Simone Collins: pizza and chandeliers. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: No pizza chandeliers and little girls. No.

Simone Collins: They don’t go together. They don’t go together. No.

Malcolm Collins: And you see this everywhere. It’s in the, it’s in the files.

911 times.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And again, like in, in my inbox, it’s not there. It’s, it’s only there if like someone else emails me about it or if I mentioned it in the one literal birthday party invite we send out in relation to a 6-year-old.

Malcolm Collins: Let’s go for pizza and grape soda, you know, pizza and grape soda tomorrow to get pizza and grape soda.

You can pick me up tomorrow at 8:18 PM after you use them. Wash your hands and let’s get pizza and grape soda.

Simone Collins: Wash your hands

Malcolm Collins: after you use them. Referring to pizza as them and wash your hands. And who starts a pizza night at [00:51:00] 8:11 PM

Simone Collins: Okay. A lot of people ate late. A lot of people ate late. I’m sure if we looked like the order rates of, of, of pizza restaurants, I, I’m not worried about the timing.

You and I, I know our bedtime is at eight 30.

Malcolm Collins: That’s

Simone Collins: not everyone’s bedtime.

Malcolm Collins: So what I take away from all of this is it, it not a connection to anything like the, the ping pong and all of that nonsense. Mm-hmm. Right. Actually, I’ll even take that out. The. The establishment

Simone Collins: and the asteroid flatbread with tomato sauce on it.

Venue?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. The, it, nothing, nothing about that particular part of said conspiracy, but the wider idea that pizza is used in some elite context whiz, this other meaning I think is pretty much hard confirmed at this point. Mm-hmm. And now that this is confirmed, do we need to look at past instances whi new [00:52:00] glasses?

I think so, but I think at the same time it’s important to not get stupid about this stuff. Mm-hmm. We still don’t have really good evidence. People were tortured. We don’t have evidence of cannibalism, we don’t have evidence of babies, we don’t have evidence of a lot of them, even, even the Prince Andrew, we, we.

We know he was involved. We know that there’s a weird picture of him over a girl, which is like compromising, but not even that sexual like she,

Simone Collins: well, and I think a lot of it, it just, it gets, it gets so overblown. Like we’re not, we’re not harvesting adrenaline from people, but we, I mean, one, like there’s a party on a college campus, people are sleeping together.

It gets a little outta hand sometimes. You know, people break some furniture. Of course that’s gonna happen, you know, at any party that, that runs late, gets raucous, you know, has people getting all riled up. So stuff’s gonna happen. You know, you get people together and they’re celebrating, people are gonna end up sleeping together.

Like it just happened. So, of course, of course that happened. [00:53:00] It’s no surprise. And, and, and also it’s really, really well documented and well known, completely independent of Epstein. That, that there are, that wherever you find rich people, you are going to find attractive young women who will just show up.

They are happy to go to a club or a yacht or a fancy hotel or fancy venue and have things be paid for and to be around wealthy and famous people, even for zero compensation.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: And that just happens. So yes, I mean it’s, it’s like, well where, where there is, you know, stagnant water you’re gonna find bacteria growing where there are wealthy people hanging out in leisure time, you’re going to find.

Young, sexually available women. Like I, I just, you know, so some of this, it’s obvious. Of course, we don’t have to deny that, and this is now just confirming more of it.

Malcolm Collins: And I, I, I don’t think it helps us to overreach, right? Yeah. Like, I would love it if Zohan OMI [00:54:00] was actually tied up with Epstein That would make my effing day.

But

Simone Collins: he, yeah, I, but I, you know, I, it, it seems very, I would be honestly surprised if it didn’t turn out that he’s just in, in a monogamous, really relationship with his hot artsy wife, because she’s

Malcolm Collins: cool. I, I would be surprised about that.

Simone Collins: Oh, you think they’re poly?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, at least he lives in New York’s

Simone Collins: time for that.

He seems

Malcolm Collins: actually busy, Simone. Literally in, in Manhattan. The chance if you are a wealthy couple that you are monogamous is, I’d say one in four.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If you, but no, he’s also very busy. If you’re poly, it’s because you’re literally not investing in your career.

Malcolm Collins: Not if you are high enough power to basically command sex from people.

You’re, you are thinking that he’s like

Simone Collins: four on No, but the stakes are high in, in progressive circles especially. You can’t Oh, I guess you’re right. Yeah. Like the, the risk to him is both too high. Plus I, again, do not think he has the time for it, so, no, I, I think of, of anyone that you’ve [00:55:00] discussed today, mom Donni is the most likely to be in a monogamous straight relationship.

Malcolm Collins: No, he is Muslim. You know, they do, they do like their multiple wives. It’s

Simone Collins: not even like, yeah. But again, just from a, as a progressive, he, he, he basically can’t sleep with other women outside his marriage unless he’s super, super open about being poly without someone being like, and then he slept with me, like just the, the, the.

The points you get.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: But the, for essentially attacking him by consensually engaging relationship.

Malcolm Collins: The point I’m making here is we don’t have good evidence on that.

Simone Collins: No. We,

Malcolm Collins: we don’t have good evidence on Elon. We don’t have good evidence in, in fact, I, I just with my personal experiences, I would say with almost certainty and how hard he fought to get the files released, that there Elon did not go to those parties.

Simone Collins: But no one’s, no one’s saying he did, are

Malcolm Collins: they? No. A lot of people are saying he did. He says in one of the emails, what day [00:56:00] is the wildest party going to be on the island? A lot of people take that as confirmation that he showed up on that day. But he has been so proud about outwitting Epstein in his mind.

Like why would he have that pride if he didn’t outwit Epstein? Why would he have, yeah. Fought for this. If there was something genuinely compromising on him, he might forget that he had said, oh, I’ll show up one time. He wouldn’t forget if he actually showed up at one of these parties.

Simone Collins: Well, I think it’s also important to remember that if, if you like a good party, you’re probably gonna be fairly agnostic about like, whose parties you’re interested in showing up to.

One of the first things that Elon Musk did, again, just like looking at his, his biographies that I’ve read, when he was, the first time he had wealth was start throwing insane parties. He, he is a connoisseur of insane parties. Parties. He throw good

Malcolm Collins: parties. Yeah.

Simone Collins: He, he literally like almost killed himself, like doing like sumo wrestler fighting at one of his parties.

I mean, he

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, he does, he does. Great [00:57:00] parties. Yeah. Yeah. But the, outside of, of, of that also nothing new, really bad on Trump except for random accusations that like unconfirmed. The, the one person who just absolutely torpedoed by this, who hadn’t been torpedoed before. Bill Gates.

Simone Collins: Bill Gates, rest in peace, reputation,

Malcolm Collins: rest in peace.

Bill Gates, you have your reputation and history. You should have sided with the bad guys if you had just played the villain like us. And you know, who else

Simone Collins: wants you should have just stopped up on antibiotics and like, I don’t know, giving your wife.

Malcolm Collins: Apple. Elon plays a villain to an extent as well, but he, he likes positive press coverage more than, than we do.

Simone Collins: I, because he’s, he’s pressured so much by his companies.

Malcolm Collins: You know, yesterday the New York Times did another piece featuring us. And I had given her so many quotes she could use to make us look bad. Like we don’t want to drag progressive women to Mar-a-Lago breeding pits. Those are the exact type of women we’re glad won’t exist in the future.

And I was like, of course she’s gonna use that. No, she uses a bunch [00:58:00] of benign quotes. You know, you can’t control when they’re gonna make you look like a, a villain, right? But I really want to, I wanna get Mar-a-Lago breeding pits in the New York Times. That’s one of my goals for 2026.

Simone Collins: Thanks, son. Your,

Malcolm Collins: you guys can help me.

Your

Simone Collins: vision board.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, my vision board. I want New York Times to title an article. Women Protist Leader, women Drag to Mar-a-Lago breeding pits. Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Love you EF Simone. This was frustrating for me to research because I expected a lot more salacious than I actually got. But I mean, not that the Bill Gates thing wasn’t great, it’s just everybody found that immediately. And I think it opens up some old questions. I think that’s the biggest takeaway from this.

But yeah,

Simone Collins: people be gross. Surprise,

Malcolm Collins: surprise. And it makes me grateful that I don’t have these skeletons in my closet.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which is just like, I don’t, yeah. I’m, I’m lucky that I have such an aversion [00:59:00] to like, women with high body counts or like incompetent women that like I need to respect a woman to find her attractive.

Which,

Simone Collins: oh, isn’t there some kind of like really progressive word for that?

Malcolm Collins: I dunno. DMI sexual or something?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Are you, oh God. Are you dummy? Sexual gross?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I don’t think so. ‘cause it’s not my like, default. It’s just like, if it’s, if it’s a real person, I, I don’t know. It’s like I, I don’t want to stick it in a trash can.

Like, you know, I, I, I, I see little difference.

Simone Collins: There are lots of

Malcolm Collins: incredible people to get in, like a used nappy. Like

Simone Collins: there are lots of incredible high body count people who just happen to enjoy sex. It’s just you have, you have

Malcolm Collins: a Would I sleep with him? No. Like if gay people are like, why, why does Simone not mind Malcolm being alone and like, such good friends with ala and it’s like, she knows I wouldn’t do that.

It’s like not my thing.

Simone Collins: Yeah. [01:00:00] Yeah. It’s just, it’s one of those things, like some people are just really. Turned off by like big boobs. Some people are really turned off by small boobs. Mouth was just really turned off by like body counts. It’s not a judgment on those people,

Malcolm Collins: but it protects me from this nonsense.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Interesting conversation. Do you have any final thoughts on this?

Any, any change in the way you see the world after this?

Simone Collins: You know, I think what bothers me the most about this, especially when the conversation turns to things like child sacrifice and actual non-consensual relations, slavery, et cetera, trying to move around these words, these are rampant and actual and very real problems in the world that I would really like to see end. I mean, just, just normal. Not just women enslaved, but men enslaved too. You know, forced into years of service on shrimping ships. You know, like the, well, I mean, horrible work where they’ll just die cognize.

Slavery

Malcolm Collins: are common across Africa.

Simone Collins: Exactly. Not just Africa [01:01:00] either. Like people are being, children are being killed, children are being enslaved. Women and men are being enslaved. Oh, but we’re not trying to address that. No, no, no, no. We’re just talking about like the 15 people who got pulled into, and also like, thi this is all, you know, the, there, this stuff is happening and we can probably do stuff about it, but we’re not because we’re too busy talking about this thing that happened in the past that’s probably not even happening anymore among these elite people.

And that we, we, people are buying the shrimp. That is being cut by slaves. You know what I mean?

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I hear what you’re saying. But I also think that the people who participate in this sort of debauch stuff shouldn’t be running society. And I don’t mind if more of it gets aired out. I think that

Simone Collins: No, I mean, yeah, it, it, it, no, I don’t care who is, is perpetrating the crime.

It’s super not okay. But also like when, when it comes to the stuff in here that I don’t actually think is happening, like be [01:02:00] children being killed, that does bother me because children are being killed and.

Malcolm Collins: By the way, final point on this before we close out.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I still think that we have very hard evidence that Epstein was an intelligence asset.

He was literally called an asset by people in intelligence. In, in, in one of the, like,

Simone Collins: I think he played all sides. I think he just was recorded. He, he couldn’t come across an opportunity that he wouldn’t exploit. He couldn’t help himself.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: He was like a savant for it. Like, he was swindling it using double timing and feeding information to absolutely everyone.

He was incredibly like genius level, good at it. And that was his like special interest. That’s it. That was what he did. So you

Malcolm Collins: what I think you’re downplaying the Epstein thing like. People like Bill Gates should still face accountability and we know they won’t, right? Like we’re, we’re in this position in society now where we know that the only legacy, the only accountability he will face [01:03:00] is to his legacy and public perception.

And it is also really gross to me that completely unconfirmed and that,

Simone Collins: well, what, what is illegal that he did? If, if everything is true, right? What,

Malcolm Collins: what? Nothing that we have confirmation of, but I think an investigation should happen. Like, I, I, I think that we now

Simone Collins: have, well, okay, so, so, out of one side of your mouth, you criticize the fact that BDSM content is illegal in the uk and then off the other side of your mouth, you’re like, oh, well we should investigate Bill Gates for allegedly, potentially, maybe.

Malcolm Collins: Well, we know is that he had real connections to Epstein and was doing stuff at Epstein parties, right. Given everything else we know about these parties, that to me seems like enough evidence to be like, we should be doing more research into this. And I think it’s really unfair what I’ve seen in the public commentary to group something where now we have more smoking gun like Bill Gates with completely non-smoking guns like Zhan, [01:04:00] Ani, and Elon and Trump.

Simone Collins: Ah hmm. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it, it, it is frustrating that at, at the very least the argument that I’ve seen a lot of people like. Aspen Gold make is we need these files released because I want to see these wealthy people be held accountable and now files are being released

Malcolm Collins: and they

Simone Collins: won’t be able to, and no one’s being held accountable.

And that is, is almost worse than the files not being released.

Malcolm Collins: And that, yeah, it just shows what everybody knew that our society’s controlled by a bunch of, but,

The major leaks that we dropped. There was some new stuff on Bill Clinton, but everybody knows he’s a Dirtbag. There was, . Howard Lutnick stuff, but who cares? Commerce Secretary Peter Mendelson, the ex UK ambassador. This is the other person who the torture video could have been about other than Epstein.

, He, , left the Labor Party after this. , He wasn’t by the way expelled, which is surprising, but [01:05:00] everybody knows that every progressive in the UK is a child rapist after the BBC stuff. They just, that’s normal. That’s been normal in the uk is being evil leftists. , I don’t not even know how people in the UK lived with themselves.

, Marette Merrit, , this is the Norway Crown Princess. Nobody cares. It’s a hereditary position with no real power. , But yeah, those, they’re the other big ones.

Malcolm Collins: but , the second thing here is I want, when you’re reading these files and you’re like, random, nobody accuses Epstein of X after Epstein is famous again, remember that we are looking at these accusations from the perspective of people who are accused of practicing dark magic on the number one podcast in the world, right?

Like, we know what it’s like to be in the public spotlight. Random people will make stuff up about you. These accusations do not really matter unless they’re coming from somebody who would have something to lose by making up these accusations about you. [01:06:00] Anyway, levy did SM. I

Simone Collins: love you too.

Malcolm Collins: Or, or your own texts, which that’s where the e the, the, the Bill Gates ones become credible.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Un Unless, I don’t know how long the email chain goes, if the, there’s an immediate response from him who are always like, I don’t know who you’re talking about. And it’s really clear they could try to blackmail me with this email chain. Like, what on earth are you doing? I mean, ‘cause, so I’m just saying, you know, you never know,

Malcolm Collins: but.

Simone Collins: So anyway,

Malcolm Collins: okay. I, I love you to DeSimone. You’re amazing. And tonight pizza, cheese, pizza uh, one of the little brown ones. If you could get those for me. You know, we

uh,

Simone Collins: hate you.

Oh.

Malcolm Collins: Oh.

Simone Collins: Wait, wait, Mr. Your dinosaur friend. Little green man.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway how were people in the comments? The video completely bombed. [01:07:00]

Simone Collins: I’m sorry about that. I didn’t get to the comments yet today.

Malcolm Collins: No, it’s okay. You were really busy. You were handling infants with medical issues

Simone Collins: and homeschooling boys and groceries and chickens and emails and investor requests. And I did the AI influencer outreach too.

Again, some people already got back.

Malcolm Collins: You’re intense, Simone. I really,

Simone Collins: we just have to, we have to triage, right. And

Malcolm Collins: doing

Simone Collins: the right stuff.

Malcolm Collins: You gotta move our fab forward. ‘cause that’s most likely to be a source of income. Anyway, I will get started.

[01:08:00] [01:09:00]