The Making of A Gender Heretic, with Ben Appel

Nov 10, 2025

Ben Appel, a provocative writer and commentator, dives deep into his memoir, exploring the complex relationships within identity politics after his escape from a strict Christian upbringing. He shares insights on the moral policing within queer spaces, questioning the rise of representation over excellence. Ben discusses the consequences of dissent in activist circles, including lost friendships and social blacklisting. He advocates for embracing gender-nonconforming kids without pushing medical interventions, challenging the narrative surrounding gender issues today.

Ask episode

AI Snips

Chapters

Books

Transcript

Episode notes

INSIGHT

Perceived Double Standards In Contextualizing Harm

Ben observed what he saw as moral relativism in class discussions that contextualized practices like wife-beating without condemning them.
He contrasted that reluctance to condemn with how Western Christian practices would be criticized, highlighting perceived double standards.

INSIGHT

Ideological Policing Reawakens OCD Fears

Campus dynamics reawakened Ben's scrupulosity as he feared being judged for mistakes or perceived bias.
He connects the anxiety of ideological policing to the same control-driven compulsions from his religious past.

ANECDOTE

Internship Where Identity Posturing Felt Performative

Ben describes his GLAAD internship where identity posturing and policing of language felt performative and alienating.
He felt straight women and others sometimes appropriated queer identity and enforced strict pronoun and behavior norms.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Get the app

This week, Ben Appel joins me to talk about his new book, Cis White Gay: The Making of a Gender Heretic, a memoir about leaving one kind of cult only to stumble into another. Raised in a rigid Christian community, Ben found refuge in the gay rights movement and, later, the Ivy League—until "allyship" started to look less like solidarity and more like a loyalty oath.

We discuss • Why he chose the deliberately provocative title Cis, White, Gay — and what reactions revealed about current identity politics. • How queer "community" has become increasingly moralized, hierarchical, and policed — and what gets lost when dissent is framed as betrayal. • The difference between taste and taboo — and how aesthetic preferences are now treated as political statements. • Why "representation" has replaced excellence as the highest cultural virtue. • How literary gatekeeping operates today — from publishers and prize committees to informal online watchdogs. • The loneliness of ideological nonconformity in queer and creative circles. • The professional and social costs of questioning orthodoxy — including lost friendships, lost opportunities, and subtle blacklisting. Guest Bio: Ben Appel is a writer and commentator whose memoir, Cis White Gay, traces his path from a strict Christian sect to progressive activism—and his break with movement orthodoxy; he's written for outlets like Newsweek, UnHerd, and more, and publishes on Substack. Become a paying subscriber to The Unspeakeasy and get lots of perks, including access to monthly hangouts for Founding Members. https://www.theunspeakablepodcast.com/ I'm teaching a Zoom writing workshop in Memoir and Personal Essay, Jan 6 through Feb 24, 2026. Apply by Dec 5. https://www.theunspeakablepodcast.com/p/next-writing-course-starts-jan-6 The Unspeakeasy 2026 retreat schedule has been announced! https://theunspeakeasy.com/retreats Order my book, The Catastrophe Hour: Selected Essays, on Amazon or directly from the publisher https://www.nyrb.com/products/the-catastrophe-hour.