Secularization Isn't Gravity w/ Stefan Paas

Mar 18, 2026

Stefan Paas, Dutch theologian and missiologist who studies church planting in post-Christian contexts. He discusses apatheism and why indifference matters more than hostility. He reframes secularization as exile, explores worship as countercultural practice, and imagines mission as creating small niches of hope and faithful witness from the margins.

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ANECDOTE

Dutch Podcast Reached Atheists And Sparked Church Interest

Paas shares his podcast success: a Dutch-language show with roughly 300,000 monthly listeners that attracts non-Christian guests and listeners.
He receives messages from atheists who say the conversations led them or their children to church.

ADVICE

Use Podcasting For Evangelism Conversations

Use internet formats like podcasts and respectful online conversations to reach secularized youth.
Paas cites his Dutch podcast (300k monthly listeners) and converts who credit online content for sparking church engagement.

INSIGHT

Worship Preserves God Language And Resists Instrumentalism

Corporate-style efficiency isn't always the point; worship and liturgy preserve God-language and resist instrumentalism.
Paas notes liturgical practices appeal to some Gen Z seekers because they convey intrinsic beauty, not utility.

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Secularization Isn’t Gravity

Apatheism, Exile, and Mission Without Power (with Stefan Paas)

Is Christianity declining in the West—or are we misunderstanding what’s happening?

Missiologist Stefan Paas argues that secularization isn’t inevitable. It’s not gravity. Instead, it’s the result of millions of personal decisions—and that means its trajectory can change.

In this episode of Post Everything, John Houmes talks with Paas about the rise of apatheism—a cultural moment where God isn’t rejected so much as ignored—and what it means for Christian mission in a post-Christian society.

Rather than responding with panic, nostalgia, or attempts to reclaim cultural power, Paas suggests that the Church may need to rediscover something much older: faithful witness from the margins.

Together they discuss:

Why indifference may be a bigger challenge than hostility

The surprising religious curiosity among younger generations

What Christians can learn from the biblical experience of exile

Why worship may be one of the most countercultural practices left

How the Church can maintain its identity without resentment

Why mission today may look less like conquest—and more like creating small “niches” of hope and beauty

Chapters

00:00 Intro

03:50 🧐 Christianity's Current Social Position

09:20 Christian Proclamation Amidst Apatheism

11:20 ⚽️ Christians on Liverpool FC

12:00 🎙️ Proclamation through Podcasting

16:00 Worship as Rebellion

20:55 ✝️ 🇺🇸Faith Identity & National Identity

21:30 Secularization as Exile

27:30 Learning From Historic Black Church

29:00 Identity Maintenance in Exile

34:00 Formation as Preparation for Exile

35:30 ⛪️ Six Western Types of Churches

36:30 🇺🇸 American Impulses in Church Style

40:00 Love of Enemies in Exile

43:40 ⏱️ The Kingdom of God - Geography or Chronology?

44:30 Doxology & Mission Aren't Efficient

50:05 John's Favorite Paas Quote

52:53 Is God Behind Secularization?

55:00 🌎 ⛪️The Church & the World

56:00 Christian Spirituality & Identity in Exile

59:00 Secularization = Sum of a Million Decisions

1:01:45 So Many Enemies