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Old and New Rights | Interview: George Hawley

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May 11, 2026

Guest

George Hawley

George Hawley, associate professor and author specializing in conservatism, joins to unpack what 'right' means across history and movements. They trace fusionism, the waves of new-right populism, tensions between conservatism and mass appeal, and how identity and ethnic politics reshape partisan life. Short, sharp conversations on unity, executive power, and conservatism’s intellectual roots.

01:15:44

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ADVICE

Don't Idolize Unity Evaluate Who Wields It

Treat unity as amoral and evaluate its consequences rather than praising it as inherently good.
Jonah Goldberg warns unified movements can achieve noble or destructive ends, so assess who wields that unity.

insights

INSIGHT

Populism Tends Toward Executive Centralization

Populist claims to embody the people's will concentrate power in a strong executive and risk Caesarism.
Hawley notes conservatives once warned against this and lamented its erosion on the right in recent years.

insights

INSIGHT

The Old Right Was A Skeptical Aristocratic Libertarian Cluster

The old right was a loose cluster united mainly by opposition to the New Deal, not a single coherent ideology.
Hawley calls it an aristocratic libertarian constellation skeptical of masses and big government.

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Explaining Fusionism and Frank Meyer

01:26 • 4min

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Traditionalist Critics and Compelled Virtue

05:50 • 1min

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Defining 'Right-wing' Versus 'Conservative'

06:57 • 3min

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Equality, Ethnic Nationalism, and the Right

09:48 • 4min

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Left's Aversion to Separation and Conservatism's Appeal

13:30 • 47sec

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The 'New Rights' Through History

14:17 • 3min

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Populism's Throughline in New Right Movements

16:58 • 1min

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Populism Versus Conservatism Tension

18:18 • 4min

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Populism's Historical Left Origins and McCarthy's Impact

Unity, Caesarism, and Executive Power

27:54 • 6min

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Historical Roots: The Old Right and Its Cohesion

33:59 • 3min

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Wilson, the New Deal, and Conservative Memory

36:50 • 6min

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Labeling Shifts: Who Gets Called 'Right-wing'?

Conservatism and Identity Politics

47:59 • 7min

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Partisanship as Social Identity and Its Consequences

54:33 • 8min

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Is Conservatism an Ideology or Temperament?

01:02:14 • 6min

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Classical Liberalism's Place in American Conservatism

01:08:34 • 4min

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Conservative Histories: Nash, 1920s Roots, and Populist Prehistory

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Jonah Goldberg, weary of the grind, needs some R&R. Not being much of a beach man and finding ping pong boring, he turns to the one activity which puts the pep back in his step and color in his cheeks: day drinking. Wait … checks notes … rather, Jonah turns to his other favorite recreation: talking about conservatism.

Today Jonah’s partner in crime is political scientist and notorious conservatism nerd George Hawley. Join this dynamic duo as they dive into the meaning of “right” and “left,” the many new rights, populist tension, the cult of unity, the progressive era, socialism, identity politics on the right, ethnic politics, antisemitism, Russell Kirk, the horseshoe theory, me-too Republicans, and conservatism as ideology and its origins.

Show Notes:
—George Hawley in The Dispatch: “The Enduring Lessons of Fusionism”
—Right-Wing Critics of American Conservatism
—Samuel Huntington: “Conservatism as an Ideology”
—David Schoenbaum: Hitler's Social Revolution: Class and Status in Nazi Germany, 1933-1939
—Jonah’s first book: Liberal Fascism
—Hawley: Conservatism in a Divided America: The Right and Identity Politics
—Charlie Cooke Remnant
—George Nash: The Conservative Intellectual Movement in America Since 1945
—Matthew Continetti: The Right: The Hundred-Year War for American Conservatism

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