BODY LANGUAGE, a Matter of Survival – with Expert Mark Bowden (ep.191)

What is your body saying when you’re not speaking, and how could it be holding you back? In this episode, world-renowned body language expert Mark Bowden explains how nonverbal signals impact trust, credibility, and executive presence. Discover how our brains instinctively scan for safety cues, and why understanding body language is critical for anyone who leads, presents, or communicates under pressure.

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TRANSCRIPTION

“What instantly comes to your mind when you see me cross my arms?”

Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk:
I’ve been told that’s a sign of defensiveness, but I’m not sure that’s true.

Mark Bowden:
Yeah? Well, good. You know, I’d start by checking who told you that.

AW:
I think it’s just common knowledge, right?

MB:
Common knowledge. Yeah, stupid. You know, I actually stopped trying to count all the reasons why people cross their arms after I hit 30. It just got boring. There are many, many reasons.

Meet Mark Bowden

AW: Mark Bowden is a world-renowned body language expert, and he’s been on my radar for a while. When we finally connected for this interview, we discovered that we live and work near each other. What a coincidence! We both share a passion for helping others communicate more effectively.

But I have to say: Mark blew my mind.

This conversation took twists and turns I didn’t see coming. So buckle up. You’re about to learn a ton about body language, perception, credibility, and so much more.

Welcome to the Talk About Talk Podcast!

In this episode, you’ll hear my conversation with body language expert, keynote speaker, and bestselling author Mark Bowden. You’ll learn the one key thing you need to focus on to instantly improve your body language, and your communication overall. You’ll also gain insight into how our motivations, including our primal survival instincts, shape our perceptions of others, especially when it comes to interpreting body language. And finally, we’ll bust a few body language myths that you’ve probably accepted as truth…until now.

If you’re a returning listener, welcome back. I’m so glad you’re here. And if you’re new to Talk About Talk, welcome! Please subscribe to the podcast on your platform of choice (Apple, Spotify, or YouTube), where you can actually see me and Mark in action. Subscribing ensures you never miss an episode and that you receive ongoing communication coaching from me every two weeks.

We cover topics like:

• Overcoming imposter syndrome
• Giving powerful presentations
• Establishing executive presence
• Building your personal brand
• And yes, body language.

You can also find free learning resources, coaching services, and more on the Talk About Talk website: talkabouttalk.com.

A Quick Roadmap

First, I’ll introduce Mark, then we’ll dive into our interview. Afterward, I’ll summarize with three key learnings that I hope you’ll take away. You don’t need to take notes. Just keep doing whatever you’re doing: walking, driving, lounging on the couch. I’ve got you covered. And of course, you can always reference the show notes in your podcast app for more details.

About Mark Bowden

Mark Bowden is a globally recognized authority on body language. He’s been named the No. 1 Body Language Professional in the world multiple times by Global Gurus.

His unique GesturePlane™ system of nonverbal communication empowers audiences to use body language to stand out, build trust, and gain credibility.

Mark is the founder of TRUTHPLANE®, a communication training company that serves major organizations including Zoom, Shopify, Real Madrid, Toyota, the U.S. Army, and NATO. He’s also worked with G7 prime ministers and business leaders worldwide.

He’s a bestselling author, a popular instructor in Canada’s top-ranked EMBA program at the Kellogg-Schulich School of Business, and the current President of the National Communication Coach Association of Canada.

You might’ve seen Mark on the Dr. Phil Show, CNN, CBS, or Global News, or watched his TEDx talk, “The Importance of Being In-Authentic,” which has reached tens of millions of viewers. He’s also a co-host of the YouTube hit The Behavior Panel, which has garnered more than 75 million views.

Thank you so much for being here today, Mark, to talk with me, and the Talk About Talk listeners, about body language.

MB:
It’s great to be here. So, what are your thoughts? What are your questions or observations?

AW:
Let’s start with the big picture. I coach senior executives on all things communication. So how, and why, does body language fit into the broader context of communication and executive presence?

MB:
Easy. I judge you. You judge me. We all judge each other. That’s it. Now, how do we do that?

Well, we could come up with all kinds of explanations that aren’t really true. But the reality is, we form (and continue to form) judgments based mostly on how people behave in front of us. What their face is doing. What their body is doing. What their hands are doing. How they’re dressed. The environment they’re in.

We judge partly by vocal tone, but we barely judge each other on what’s actually said. In fact, we often just make up what we think someone said based on how they behaved. So if you change, or more importantly, choose, your behaviors, you stand a much better chance of shaping how someone judges you. That influences how they interpret what you’ve said and even what they imagine you said.

AW:
So the transcript doesn’t really matter?

MB:
Right. Here’s the interesting thing. I could say something with very positive content, and if you transcribed it, it would read positively. But if I use body language that communicates negativity, that’s what people will walk away with.

AW:
Mm-hmm.

MB:
I’ll ask people, “What images came to mind when I said that?” And they’ll often report negative associations, even though my words were positive. That’s because they weren’t truly listening. Their brains were inventing meaning based on how I looked and behaved. And that narrative, the one their brains created, completely takes over.

AW:
Right.

MB:
They go back to their teams and say, “We came up with such a great message!” but the audience didn’t take that message away. Instead, people are telling each other a whole different story. And that story, based on body language, spreads. If I use body language effectively, I can control the narrative in people’s minds and influence how they communicate that message to others.

AW:
I’m watching you now, Mark. You’re so effectively reinforcing your words with your gestures: your facial expressions, your arms, your hands. And I’m suddenly very aware of my own body language.

My clients say the same thing. As soon as we talk about body language, especially when they’re on stage or leading a meeting, it’s like, “Where do I look? What do I do with my hands?” So what should executives prioritize when it comes to body language and being perceived as credible leaders?

MB:
Just one thing.

AW:
Mm-hmm?

MB:
Open-palm gestures at navel height.

AW:
The truth plane.

MB:
Exactly. People often ask, “What else?” But until you master that one thing, especially under stress, don’t worry about anything else. That one behavior has incredible power when it comes to building trust and credibility.

AW:
Okay.

MB:
If you’re speaking in front of a group (whether it’s 10 people or 10,000) and you ask me what single behavior gives you the most bang for your buck, it’s open-palm gestures at navel height. Once you’ve nailed that, everything else, like eye contact, will start to fall into place.

When you’re under pressure and still use open-palm gestures at navel height, you create what I call a “cascade effect.” It triggers certain behaviors in your audience, and those behaviors influence the rest of the room.

AW:
Right. From mirroring and everything else. I often tell my clients that showing open palms signals you’re not holding a spear, rock, knife, or gun. It communicates safety. But why specifically at navel height?

MB:
Great question. You’re right: Open palms universally signal no tools, no weapons. That message transcends culture. You and I may come from different backgrounds, but our brains understand that visual cue the same way.

But it’s not just the hands. The navel area represents the body’s center of gravity. It reveals your true intention. People say, “Watch their feet.” No, watch where their center of gravity is going. If the torso doesn’t move, the feet don’t matter.

This area here (your stomach, your navel) is incredibly vulnerable. We haven’t evolved to have ribs protecting it all the way down. Why? Because our ancestors needed to be able to duck, run, and twist quickly to survive. If we had a rigid ribcage extending all the way down, our agility would be compromised.

AW:
Right.

MB:
So think back to when we were ground-dwelling mammals. When there was a threat, we’d hit the ground and protect our belly. That was our survival instinct. But now, as upright hominids walking the plains of Africa, we’ve gained visibility (we can see threats from far away) but we’ve also exposed our most vulnerable area.

AW:
Because we’re standing up now.

MB:
Exactly. Standing upright offers a tactical advantage: you can spot predators or allies from miles away. But the downside is that your vital organs are now exposed. So when I show you my open palms at navel height, I’m not just saying “no weapons.” I’m signaling vulnerability, exposing the soft tissue that could lead to death if damaged.

AW:
So you’re communicating: “I’m not a threat. I trust you.”

MB:
Yes. And in doing that, I reduce perceived risk. And in a leadership context, especially when there’s risk outside the room, you want to be seen as the least risky person inside the room.

AW:
Right. Beautiful.

MB:
I use words, metaphors, and imagery to communicate that the risk is out there—not in here, not with me. I want people to think, “Wow, this is a safe space.” That’s why open-palm gestures at navel height work so well for leaders.

AW:
When I coach executives, whether in workshops or one-on-one, many say they feel overwhelmed by body language. They’ve heard that 68% (or whatever the number is) of communication is nonverbal. So they start to panic: “Where do I look? What do I do with my face? My hands?”

That’s why I created a simple three-point scan:

1. Posture: Be expansive
2. Hands: Open palms
3. Eyes: Make intentional eye contact

Now I’ll say “Open palms at navel height.” What do you think about that framework?

MB:
It’s great. You’re simplifying a complex system. Human communication is overwhelming. There are so many signals flying around. Your clients are trying to manage their own behavior while analyzing others. The brain starts to panic. Oxygen leaves the thinking part of the brain, and they fall back into instinct: fight or flight.

That’s why I try to get clients down to just one behavior. When they’re under pressure, dealing with a big presentation or unexpected scrutiny, they can’t manage everything. So I say, “Just do the one thing that will create a cascade effect.”

Forget what you’re feeling. I don’t care if you’re scared or confident. It’s not about you, it’s about the audience. We’re trying to change their minds. That’s the hardest thing in the world to do.

So I tell clients: open-palm gestures at navel height. They’ll ask, “Should I make eye contact?” Don’t worry, it will fall into place.

This moment is extraordinary. You’re in an extraordinary situation. Ordinary behaviors, what feels natural or “authentic,” won’t cut it. Authenticity is about survival. It’s designed to keep you where you are, safe and small. But you’re not trying to be small, you’re leading. You need extraordinary behaviors for an extraordinary moment. And yes, it will feel odd. Do it anyway. Do it on purpose.

AW:
Got it. So how does this change in a virtual environment? Say I’m doing a podcast, a TV interview, or a Zoom call. Should I still be holding my hands up and showing my palms? What should we be thinking about with the face, the framing, and the impressions we’re giving?

MB:
Great question. The biggest thing to consider here is context. Let’s imagine we were doing this interview live, in person.

We’d have to travel to meet. That’s time and money. We’d have to find a venue. That’s even more risk, logistics, insurance, and a physical audience. There’s a reason insurers require waivers for live events, it’s risky.

Now compare that to this. What’s the risk assessment here?

AW:
Pretty low. I can delete parts if needed.

MB:
Exactly. This is a cheap signal. In animal communication, this is what we call a “cheap signal.” It didn’t cost much. So my value, and your value, just dropped in your audience’s eyes.

If you met me in person, you’d think, “Wow, Mark’s amazing!” Why? Because you would’ve invested time and energy. Your brain would say, “This must be valuable, why else would I have spent all this effort?”

So here in this low-cost environment, I need to raise the perceived value. I do that by making this conversation feel more alive. More animated. I need to give your brain the sense of social risk, like we’re breathing the same air, even though we’re not.

AW:
That reminds me of something a vocal coach told me. She said that online communication dampens everything. So we need to be more intentional, more dynamic with our voice: vary the pace, pitch, tone, and volume. It’s all about overcoming that dampening effect.

MB:
Exactly. I’m doing the same visually. I’m maximizing the video. I’ve got a great mic here, a Neumann TLM 103, so I can get up close and whisper if I want, and it picks up that intimacy. That creates proximity.

But humans are visual. Some people claim they’re more auditory or tactile, but look at how much brainpower is dedicated to vision. Evolution figured out that sight is our best survival tool. So most of our attention goes to what people are doing, not how they sound.

Now, the sound part of the brain doesn’t like to make stuff up. Unlike vision, where your brain fills in the blanks, hearing is more binary. That’s why you’ll crash your car if you talk on a phone while driving. The low audio quality forces your brain to work harder on decoding sound, stealing resources from vision. Your peripheral vision narrows, and you don’t see danger coming.

AW:
Public service announcement! Stay off your phones while driving, people.

MB:
Exactly. You literally won’t see it coming.

So when I’m on a video call or a podcast, I’m really trying to animate the frame. I’ve got 30 frames per second. If I’m not using them, I may as well send a still image. But I’m not doing that. I’m sending a moving image, one that wakes up your brain.

I’ll often break the frame slightly to get your attention. You’ll notice I use baton gestures, too. These gestures match the rhythm of my speech. They help you not only hear the cadence, but also see it.

That helps the Broca’s area of your brain (where speech processing happens) get more confident that it’s predicting me correctly. Because really, you don’t hear what I’m saying; you predict it. Then based on whether your prediction matches, you feel like, “Oh, I understand Mark!”

AW:
Sounds a lot like AI…making predictions.

MB:
Exactly. Our brains aren’t knowledge machines. They’re best-guess machines. All the knowledge you think you have? It’s just a series of guesses that turned out to be right.

But the moment those guesses stop working, your brain says, “I don’t get it.” First, it’ll assume the world is wrong, or that other people are wrong. If that doesn’t hold, the brain gets discouraged and says, “I don’t understand the universe anymore.” That’s because it’s not working from knowledge, it’s operating from predictions.

AW:
So when we’re trying to make a strong impression, we need to understand that people are constantly making judgments, and updating them. They’re looking for cues that either reinforce or contradict their initial impression.

MB:
Let me tweak that a bit. We’re not constantly judging. We only update our judgments when something new happens, when there’s a pattern disruption.

Our brains are pattern recognition machines. They spot patterns, and they like consistency. But when that pattern gets disrupted, the brain wakes up and re-evaluates.

If the new pattern is subtle or consistent, the brain keeps its judgment. But when it meets the “min spec” (the minimum specification needed to change its mind) it does. It flips.

So, when you’re trying to change a first impression, the key is understanding what that minimum trigger is. What’s the hair-trigger that shifts their perception?

AW:
Got it.

MB:
Too often, people think, “If I want a big reaction, I need to do something big.” But that’s not sustainable. You’ll burn out. Instead, figure out which small action nudges the domino. You don’t even have to pull the trigger, just touch it, and let the audience do the rest. That’s how you communicate effectively: cheap, fast, and with maximum impact.

AW:
I imagine that applies to a lot of leadership communication, whether it’s implementing a new strategy or speaking to shareholders.

MB:
Absolutely. Same principle applies in politics, too. Candidates are constantly trying to shift perceptions: of themselves, their policies, or their opponents.

AW:
Right. And you’ve analyzed a lot of political candidates’ body language on TV. I’m curious: If there are certain tropes or myths out there about body language or just outdated tips that you’re just sick and tired of hearing about.

MB:
This isn’t a pet peeve, but it’s a classic example: crossed arms.

AW:
Yes! I was going to ask about that.

MB:
Right? What comes to mind when you see me cross my arms?

AW:
I’ve always heard that it’s a sign of defensiveness. But I’m not totally convinced that’s true.

MB:
Good. First off: Who told you that?

AW:
I think it’s just… common knowledge.

MB:
Common knowledge. Yeah. Stupid. I’ve stopped counting the reasons why someone might cross their arms. I hit 30 and gave up. There are so many.

Now, why do people automatically assume crossed arms mean someone’s “closed off”? Why make that judgment?

AW:
Maybe because you leaned back while doing it? Like, “I’m done with this conversation.”

MB:
That’s one possibility. But I leaned back here just so you could clearly see the movement. Also, when I cross my arms, you can’t see my palms, there’s less visible information. And when we have insufficient data, we default to the negative.

That’s why open palm gestures work so well. They give your audience enough information to make a safe, positive assumption. Crossed arms do the opposite.

So when I cross my arms, your brain reassesses. It goes: “I don’t know what that means. It’s a big enough shift to warrant re-evaluation, but I don’t have enough info.” So, instinctively, the brain defaults to negative: “Mark is bored, angry, or defiant.”

But maybe I’m just thinking. Or I’m cold. Or I’m trying to reduce neural load to help with decision-making.

AW:
Right. That makes sense.

MB:
Here’s the point: Even as a body language expert, I’m telling you, we are all terrible at reading body language instinctively. We get it wrong constantly.

AW:
Says the expert!

MB:
It’s true. But we default to negative interpretations for survival. Our instincts don’t care about accuracy. They care about safety…right now. So if something is ambiguous, the brain says, “Prepare for something bad.”

AW:
So we’re in survival mode. And ambiguity makes us defensive or cautious.

MB:
Exactly. We’ll evaluate someone negatively before we ever evaluate them positively. The only way around that? Critical thinking. But that takes time. And in the moment, time is a luxury we don’t always have.

AW:
You can’t pause a conversation to analyze every gesture.

MB:
Right. Unless you have a very fast, practiced system and you’re constantly checking for your own safety in the process.

Communicating Safety Through Body Language

AW:
In executive presence coaching, we focus on thriving. But maybe part of the message is acknowledging that your audience is often in survival mode.

MB:
Exactly. And the simplest way to help them feel safe? Provide sufficient data.

AW:
What do you mean?

MB:
Let’s say I’m your boss and I send an email: “See me in my office at 4:30.” That’s it.

AW:
Yikes.

MB:
Why? Because there’s no context. No information. Your brain fills the gap, and it fills it with negativity. You assume the worst. But what if I was calling you in to promote you?

The more information you provide, the better people behave. Their judgments are more accurate, and they’re less likely to spiral into fear or doubt.

AW:
I heard a lot of that during the pandemic. Leaders were told to over-communicate.

MB:
Absolutely. When fear is already present, less information won’t calm people down. You need more clarity, more transparency. Combine that with aligned nonverbal cues (open palms, eye contact) and you reinforce the message of safety.

Mark’s Hot Takes on Body Language

AW:
Before we wrap up with our rapid-fire questions, what’s your hot take on body language?

MB:
Here’s one: The idea that you should mirror other people’s body language to get them to like you. That’s not quite right.

AW:
Oh?

MB:
We naturally mirror anyway. It’s part of how we develop empathy and theory of mind. But when you do it on purpose, you might mirror behaviors that aren’t useful.

If someone crosses their arms and you do the same? Now you’re both closed off. You lean back, they lean back, you spiral downward. Instead, only mirror the behaviors you want to see more of.

AW:
Got it.

MB:
A better approach? Positively affirm the behaviors you want to reinforce.

Here’s another take: All body language is either a response to power or a display of power.

AW:
Interesting.

MB:
For example, gravity is power. Throughout this interview, I’ve been showing my buoyancy against gravity. Now watch: I slump. That’s a different response to power. Now I lift again. Different message.

Every movement you make is about power. Recognizing this helps you decode behavior more effectively.

AW:
There’s a beautiful tie-in to survival here. Those with power are more likely to survive, and influence others’ survival.

Who We Follow, and Why

MB:
We mirror the strongest, clearest signal in the room, not necessarily the smartest or best. Just the most followable.

AW:
So true.

MB:
We also follow the person who controls the most valuable resource, whatever that may be in your environment. That’s why symbols and rituals matter: badges, behavior patterns, language.

AW:
And if you’re unsure of the hierarchy?

MB:
Just ask. Don’t guess. Say, “What’s most valuable to you here?” Then ask, “How would I know who controls that?”

People will tell you: Our brains love answering hierarchical, evaluative questions. It’s hardwired.

Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions

AW:
So helpful. I coach people who want to thrive, but many of these insights come down to survival. Understanding that helps us lead more effectively.

Okay. Ready for rapid-fire?

MB:
Let’s go.

AW:
Introvert or extrovert?

MB:
Ambivert. Most of us are. It’s situational, not fixed. Put someone in a different environment, you’ll see different behaviors.

AW:
Love it. Question two: communication pet peeves?

MB:
Honestly, none. In my line of work, being annoyed by communication would be unbearable. People don’t know what they don’t know. That’s why I’m here.

But ask me about food? Pet peeves galore!
Nuts in chocolate? Salt in chocolate? Unacceptable.
And don’t get me started on putting raspberries on crème brûlée. That should be illegal.

AW:
(Laughing) Okay, noted. Final question: Any podcasts or books you recommend lately?

MB:
Yes: The Rest is Politics. If you like politics, it’s thoughtful and offers fresh perspectives. Also The Rest is History. Great storytelling, global context.

AW:
Amazing! I’ll link both in the show notes.

AW:
Mark, thank you so much. I learned a ton, and I had fun.

MB:
My pleasure. Always a pleasure. Thank you.

🎧 Post-Interview Recap

Well, that was a fascinating conversation, wasn’t it?

I didn’t expect we’d end up discussing our evolutionary path from ground-dwelling mammals to upright hominids on the African plains, but I’m so glad we did. That’s why I love bringing expert guests on the podcast. We get to learn together.

Now, let me reinforce the three key takeaways from my conversation with Mark Bowden:

1. Open Palm Gestures at Navel Height

Mark strongly emphasized this single technique. If you want to appear credible, trustworthy, and influential, use open palm gestures at navel height. This is your center of gravity. It’s also a vulnerable area. By exposing it, you signal trust and reduce perceived risk.

2. We’re Wired for Risk and Survival

We instinctively scan our environment for threats, and we default to negative interpretations when information is missing. As communicators, and especially as leaders, we must recognize this and over-communicate clarity and safety, both verbally and nonverbally.

3. Body Language Myths Debunked

First, crossed arms don’t always mean defensiveness. They can indicate thoughtfulness, comfort, or even that you’re cold. Second, don’t mirror others’ body language indiscriminately. Only mirror behaviors that you want to reinforce. Otherwise, you risk reinforcing negativity or detachment.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating or review on your podcast app, and don’t forget to hit subscribe so you can continue improving your communication skills with Talk About Talk.

Thanks again to Mark Bowden.

And thank YOU for listening.

Talk soon!

 

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