Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

This Quantum Physicist Says The Wave Function Isn't Real: Rob Spekkens

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Feb 2, 2026

Rob Spekkens, a quantum foundations researcher at the Perimeter Institute known for a 2004 toy theory that models quantum phenomena from limited knowledge. He argues the wave function is epistemic, compares our confusion to undeciphered hieroglyphs, and explores causal explanations, foil theories, Bell correlations, and how to reformulate inference and causation in quantum theory.

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INSIGHT

Foil Theories Reveal Quantum Theory's Distinctive Core

Spekkens uses foil theories to map the landscape of possible worlds around quantum theory.
Studying foils reveals which operational phenomena uniquely pick out quantum theory.

INSIGHT

No-Go Theorems Force Which Assumptions To Change

Bell violations prove certain realist assumptions can't all hold; it's a no-go result.
Spekkens prefers keeping Leibniz and revising the conventional realism framework instead.

INSIGHT

Influence Versus Signaling: They Diverge

Causal influence and signaling differ: influence can exist without observable signaling.
The one-time pad shows you can have causal influence hidden by noise with no information transfer.

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From Ancient Egypt to Leibniz... Brand‑new interview out with Robert Spekkens of the Perimeter Institute, one of the sharpest minds working on quantum foundations. In 2004, he constructed a classical toy theory where your maximum knowledge is always incomplete—and out popped the no-cloning theorem, teleportation, and interference effects Feynman deemed impossible to reproduce classically. Spekkens compares our situation to Egyptian hieroglyphs before Champollion: a category mistake where we treat quantum states as descriptions of reality when they actually describe knowledge of reality. If you’re interested in the topics above, you’ll love this podcast.

As a listener of TOE you can get a special 20% off discount to The Economist and all it has to offer! Visit https://www.economist.com/toe SUPPORT: - Support me on Substack: https://curtjaimungal.substack.com/subscribe - Support me on Crypto: https://commerce.coinbase.com/checkout/de803625-87d3-4300-ab6d-85d4258834a9 - Support me on PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=XUBHNMFXUX5S4 JOIN MY SUBSTACK (Personal Writings): https://curtjaimungal.substack.com LISTEN ON SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e TIMESTAMPS: - 00:00:00 - Defining Quantum Innovation - 00:06:40 - Realism vs. Empiricism - 00:12:12 - Leibnizian Methodological Principle - 00:23:40 - Causal Explanations of Correlations - 00:30:24 - Epistemic Quantum States - 00:41:00 - Foil Theory Methodology - 00:54:00 - Causal Influence vs. Signaling - 01:07:27 - Thermodynamics and Ignorance - 01:15:00 - Conceptual Understanding in Physics - 01:21:00 - Philosophy of Physics Utility - 01:30:00 - Speckins' Toy Theory Origins - 01:40:13 - Perimeter Institute's Ambitious DNA - 01:52:00 - PBR Theorem Implications - 02:05:40 - Ontic Separability Assumptions - 02:17:40 - Hieroglyphs and Category Mistakes - 02:29:00 - Revolutionizing Modern Physics - 02:37:20 - Unscrambling Causation and Inference LINKS MENTIONED: Journals, papers, books: - https://www.rwspekkens.com - https://pirsa.org/speaker/Robert-Spekkens - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2507.01122 - https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0401052 - https://arxiv.org/abs/0706.2661 - https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0406166 - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2207.11779 - https://amazon.com/dp/1108066488?tag=toe08-20 - https://www.jstor.org/stable/687269 - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/ - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-indiscernible/ - https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/specrel.pdf - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-holearg/ - https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/mathematics/hidden-variable-theory - https://www.nature.com/articles/299802a0 - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2011.01286 - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02058098 - https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.07161 - https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/maxwells-equation - https://www.einstein-online.info/en/spotlight/equivalence_principle/ - https://perimeterinstitute.ca/ - https://amazon.com/dp/9810241054?tag=toe08-20 - https://journals.aps.org/pr/pdf/10.1103/PhysRev.47.777 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1111.3328 - https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/rosetta-stone-hieroglyphs-champollion-decipherment-egypt-180980834/ - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160932707000282 Videos: - https://youtu.be/gEK4-XtMwro - https://youtu.be/YWbjI-QsH2E - https://youtu.be/fU1bs5o3nss - https://youtu.be/NKOd8imBa2s - https://youtu.be/6I2OhmVWLMs - https://youtu.be/Tghl6aS5A3M - https://youtu.be/HIoviZe14pY - https://youtu.be/bprxrGaf0Os - https://youtu.be/4MjNuJK5RzM - https://youtu.be/c8iFtaltX-s - https://youtu.be/9AoRxtYZrZo - https://youtu.be/uOKOodQXjhc - https://youtu.be/3mhctWlXyV8 - https://youtu.be/gsSJPLX-BTA - https://youtu.be/FFW14zSYiFY - https://youtu.be/HhWWlJFwTqs

Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science.

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