Ep. 573: Carl Lentz, Transparency Crisis, Duggar Family Blues, Remembering Jerry Eisley

Christina

Hello, everyone, I’m Christina Darnell, the managing editor of MinistryWatch. Welcome to the MinistryWatch podcast.

In today’s extra episode, I talk with Warren Smith about some news items that are slightly (even significantly) outside of our normal charity and philanthropy “beat.”

So, Warren, what’s up first?

Warren

Up first today is a podcast episode featuring Carl Lentz.

Christina

Are we talking about the same Carl Lentz who was a pastor of Hillsong New York and was famously involved in a number of scandals a few years ago?

Warren

That’s the guy. And before I say more, Christina, I should say that as a Christian, I believe in redemption, restoration, and second chances.

And the podcast I heard him on, Carey Nieuwhof’s Leadership podcast, is one I listen to often.

But his episode with Carl Lentz left me sad and confused. Nieuwhof asked the right questions, and Lentz often gave the right answers. But I still cannot help but think he needs to find a career out of the limelight as an entrepreneur or a business consultant and just stay away from church leadership and big platforms for a while longer. He says he is working on a book about his experiences, what he learned. I am sure it will be a bestseller. I will not be one of its buyers. You can watch or listen to the interview here.

Christina

But, Warren, you said you believe in second chances. When a pastor or ministry leader has a fall, what should they do? Are they permanently disqualified from ministry?

Warren

Well, in some cases, yes. It’s interesting to me that sometimes even secular organizations understand that. If you get convicted of certain kinds of financial fraud, you receive a lifetime ban from working in the financial services industry. Do I believe a child abuser can be saved? Absolutely, but I don’t want that person running a kindergarten ever again.

Christina

So what are they supposed to do? Go get a job at Home Depot?

Warren

Funny you should say that, because that’s exactly what Phil Cooke says they should do.

He wrote an article recently that I like, and that’s exactly the title: “Maybe the Best Thing for A Fallen Pastor Is a Job at Home Depot.” “When leaders betray trust,” he writes, “rushing them back into the pulpit isn’t restoration, it’s denial.” I agree 100 percent. You can read the entire article here.

Christina

Let’s change gears a bit, Warren, and talk about a topic that is important to us here at MinistryWatch.

Warren

 

MinistryWatch exists to help bring transparency and accountability to Christian ministries. We have noticed that there is a growing transparency crisis in both ministry spaces and in the country at large. Read, for example, my article on the importance of Form 990s to ministry transparency, and the practice of some ministries not to file them.

Christina

This trend in Christian ministries appears to be part of a larger trend in the country and even around the world.

Warren

Transparency International just released its annual Corruption Perceptions Index. According to The Signal, “The United States hit its lowest score ever—extending a decade-long slide. The global average also fell to its lowest level in more than 10 years.”

Christina

Warren, you learned this week of the passing of your friend and ministry leader Jerry Eisley.

Warren

I did, and though our listeners have probably not heard of him, he’s a guy who has quietly shaped an entire movement. There’s an entire movement today of Christians and the arts. I think of Andrew Peterson and The Rabbit Room. Or Charlie Peacock and the Art House Movement. SD (Sam) Smith and his Story Warren. Even Gabe Lyons and the Q Conferences. All of these movements owe a debt of gratitude to Jerry Eisley, who died this week at age 76.

When I was 20 years old and a junior in college, I had an internship in Washington, DC. My friend Jan Dargatz (who went on to become a successful writer and who also died recently) introduced me to Jerry and his wife Twila, and they offered to let me stay in their home in Georgetown until I could find a permanent place to live. I stayed in their basement apartment for a week, and that week changed my life. I had just read A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Vanauken, and — to me — Jerry and Twila were the real-life Van and Davy of that book. I wanted to be them when I grew up.

Christina

Just a year earlier, they had formed The Washington Arts Group.

Warren

That’s right. They got me involved in The Washington Arts Group and I made friends that I still have today, including people like the actor Tom Key, Sen. Bill Armstrong, who went on to become the president of Colorado Christian University, and Cal Thomas, who I saw just a few months ago.

On my many trips to Washington over the years I would often stop by Foxhall Gallery, Jerry and Twila’s business, and we would share a meal and often pray together. Jerry was one absolutely one of a kind. For me, the world is a different place without him in it. Condolences to his family and friends. Our consolation is that we shall meet again.

Christina

It’s a big pivot from the Washington Arts Group to Cowboy Church, but here we go!

Warren

Yes, I guess that is a big pivot, but I think it was a pivot Jerry would appreciate. His tastes were expansive, eclectic, and he was all about people pursuing their calling in life, so – in a way – Cowboy Church would be right up his alley.

But I will confess that it was not always up my alley. I was raised in the suburbs, and I live in the city today. But, like a lot of people of my generation, when I was a kid, I had “country cousins” and would often spend a few weeks on their farms each summer.

I helped put myself through college working on a ranch in New Mexico, so I developed a deep appreciation for farm and ranch life. That also means that the idea of a “cowboy church” is not new to me. I have even been to a few outdoor “cowboy church” services. That said, I found this article from Houston Public Media on cowboy churches to be one of the best I’ve ever seen, and I commend it to you.

Christina

Warren, let’s look at one more story before we go, and I’m almost reluctant to talk about it.

Warren

I am too. It’s the story of the Duggar family. You may remember the Duggar Family, who became stars at too young an age because of their “19 and Counting” television series. The series has been off the year for five years, after a decade-long run, but the family’s troubles continue.

Christina

Oldest son Josh Duggar is in prison for receiving and possessing child sexual abuse material.

Warren

Last week, Joseph Duggar was arrested for alleged sex crimes against a 9-year-old girl during a vacation in 2020. Duggar, a married father of four, was arrested on March 18 and charged with “Lewd and Lascivious Behavior, involving unlawful sexual activity with a minor.”

Christina

We have chosen mostly not to cover this tragic story here at MinistryWatch.

Warren

This short paragraph will likely be it for us. But I wanted to mention it just enough to make this point: We are not meant to be celebrities. This insight is not original to me, but it is worth reminding ourselves of from time to time.

Christina

Any final notes before we go?

Warren

I have some travel coming up in the next couple of months, and I would love to see you. I will be in Los Angeles in April and Nashville; Dallas, and Knoxville in May. I will be in Denver and Colorado Springs in June. I will be doing reader lunches in all these cities. Let me know if you would like to join us. My email is wsmith@ministrywatch.com.

Christina

The producer for today’s program is Jeff McIntosh. Join me and Warren again on Friday for our look at the news of the week from a MinistryWatch perspective. Until then, may God bless you.