The fall of Kabul to the Taliban has placed thousands of people in mortal danger and traumatised the entire Western security establishment. How did we get it so wrong, and what happens next? Also, the future of COVID: Leeds University Global Health Professor Garrett W. Brown joins us to set out the next pandemic and why the “Pasteurian Paradigm” won’t save us. Plus Labour expels Ken Loach, what would Immanuel Kant make of Brexit Britain… and should we stop referring to curry as “curry”?

Apologies for the all-male panel this week, which is down to late changes of circumstance. We do all we can to avoid the “manel” and will restore a more reasonable gender ratio next time.

“There’s a 100% chance we’ll see another pandemic in the next ten to twenty years.” – Prof. Garrett Brown
“It’s as black and white as ‘These people helped us and if we don’t help them they will be killed’.” – Ahir Shah
“Afghanistan shows what happens when we concentrate on the wrong things… We’ve poured all our energy into self-made disputes.” – Justin Quirk
“The selfish nature of the international order today will be its own demise.” – Prof. Garrett Brown
“As an Englishman, they can prise my mild korma from my cold dead hands.” – Justin Quirk

Presented by Alex Andreou with Ahir Shah and Justin Quirk. Produced by Andrew Harrison. Assistant producers: Jacob Archbold and Jelena Sofronijevic . Music by Kenny Dickinson. Audio production by Alex Rees. Produced by Andrew Harrison. The Bunker is a Podmasters Production

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From the Bleachers #22: Why, Howie?!