The Nonlinear Library LW - Is being sexy for your homies? by Valentine
Dec 13, 2023
19:57
Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Is being sexy for your homies?, published by Valentine on December 13, 2023 on LessWrong.
Epistemic status: Speculation. An unholy union of evo psych, introspection, random stuff I happen to observe & hear about, and thinking. Done on a highly charged topic. Caveat emptor!
Most of my life, whenever I'd felt sexually unwanted, I'd start planning to get fit.
Specifically to shape my body so it looks hot. Like the muscly guys I'd see in action films.
This choice is a little odd. In close to every context I've listened to, I hear women say that some muscle tone on a guy is nice and abs are a plus, but big muscles are gross - and all of that is utterly overwhelmed by other factors anyway.
It also didn't match up with whom I'd see women actually dating.
But all of that just… didn't affect my desire?
There's a related bit of dating advice for guys. "Bro, do you even lift?" Depending on the context, the dudebros giving this advice might mention how you shouldn't listen to women about what they say they want. Because (a) the women don't really know and (b) they have reason to hide the truth anyway.
But… I mean… there's an experience here that's common enough to be a meme:
The more I connect the puzzle pieces, the weirder this looks at first.
For instance, my impression is that there is a kind of male physicality that does tend to be attractive for women. But it's mostly not about body shape (other than height). It's about functionality. Actual strength matters more than muscle size for instance. Coordination and physical competence are often turn-ons. Building stuff that's hard to build, and doing it with physical grace? Yeah.
So you'd think the ideal form of physical training for a guy to attract a woman might be things like mobility training plus some kind of skill practice like dance or woodworking.
But guys mostly be like "Nah."
(I mean, some go for it. I loved dance and martial arts, and I really tried to get into parkour, and these days I play with qigong & acrobatics. But the reason for these activities wasn't (& isn't) to attract a mate. It was (and is) mostly because I find them fun.)
But gosh, getting big does seem to attract men!
I mean, literally this seems to happen in gay contexts I think? But even setting aside sexual attraction, there's something about getting other men's "Looking big, king" that somehow… matters.
And if you take the feminist thing about male gaze seriously, that'd suggest that the physique of action heroes and comic book superheroes is actually meant to appeal to men.
If I sort of squint and ignore what people (including me) say things like lifting is for, and I just look at the effects… it sure looks like the causal arrow goes:
"desire a woman" --> "work to impress other men"
I kind of wonder if this is basically just correct. Not just that guys do this, but that maybe this is actually the right strategy. Just with some caveats because I think postmodern culture might have borked why this works and now everyone is confused.
To me this connects to how women relate to their beauty.
Beauty being female-coded seems stupid-obviously about sexual signaling. And yet! Men complimenting a woman's beauty or even being stunned in awe of her has kind of a meh impact on said woman. Some women even get annoyed if a man thinks she's pretty when she hasn't put in effort.
(Maybe it lands for her as an attempt to manipulate? "Yeah, whatever, I'm frumpy and in my sweatpants and this dude just wants to bone me. It's not sincere. He'd hump anything with tits and an ass.")
But if another woman is sincerely enamored? Not (necessary) sexually attracted, but honestly says "Wow, you look stunning!"?
As far as I can tell, there's no ceiling for how much that can matter to a woman.
This is really weird if you think beauty is about signaling sexual fitness and attractin...
Epistemic status: Speculation. An unholy union of evo psych, introspection, random stuff I happen to observe & hear about, and thinking. Done on a highly charged topic. Caveat emptor!
Most of my life, whenever I'd felt sexually unwanted, I'd start planning to get fit.
Specifically to shape my body so it looks hot. Like the muscly guys I'd see in action films.
This choice is a little odd. In close to every context I've listened to, I hear women say that some muscle tone on a guy is nice and abs are a plus, but big muscles are gross - and all of that is utterly overwhelmed by other factors anyway.
It also didn't match up with whom I'd see women actually dating.
But all of that just… didn't affect my desire?
There's a related bit of dating advice for guys. "Bro, do you even lift?" Depending on the context, the dudebros giving this advice might mention how you shouldn't listen to women about what they say they want. Because (a) the women don't really know and (b) they have reason to hide the truth anyway.
But… I mean… there's an experience here that's common enough to be a meme:
The more I connect the puzzle pieces, the weirder this looks at first.
For instance, my impression is that there is a kind of male physicality that does tend to be attractive for women. But it's mostly not about body shape (other than height). It's about functionality. Actual strength matters more than muscle size for instance. Coordination and physical competence are often turn-ons. Building stuff that's hard to build, and doing it with physical grace? Yeah.
So you'd think the ideal form of physical training for a guy to attract a woman might be things like mobility training plus some kind of skill practice like dance or woodworking.
But guys mostly be like "Nah."
(I mean, some go for it. I loved dance and martial arts, and I really tried to get into parkour, and these days I play with qigong & acrobatics. But the reason for these activities wasn't (& isn't) to attract a mate. It was (and is) mostly because I find them fun.)
But gosh, getting big does seem to attract men!
I mean, literally this seems to happen in gay contexts I think? But even setting aside sexual attraction, there's something about getting other men's "Looking big, king" that somehow… matters.
And if you take the feminist thing about male gaze seriously, that'd suggest that the physique of action heroes and comic book superheroes is actually meant to appeal to men.
If I sort of squint and ignore what people (including me) say things like lifting is for, and I just look at the effects… it sure looks like the causal arrow goes:
"desire a woman" --> "work to impress other men"
I kind of wonder if this is basically just correct. Not just that guys do this, but that maybe this is actually the right strategy. Just with some caveats because I think postmodern culture might have borked why this works and now everyone is confused.
To me this connects to how women relate to their beauty.
Beauty being female-coded seems stupid-obviously about sexual signaling. And yet! Men complimenting a woman's beauty or even being stunned in awe of her has kind of a meh impact on said woman. Some women even get annoyed if a man thinks she's pretty when she hasn't put in effort.
(Maybe it lands for her as an attempt to manipulate? "Yeah, whatever, I'm frumpy and in my sweatpants and this dude just wants to bone me. It's not sincere. He'd hump anything with tits and an ass.")
But if another woman is sincerely enamored? Not (necessary) sexually attracted, but honestly says "Wow, you look stunning!"?
As far as I can tell, there's no ceiling for how much that can matter to a woman.
This is really weird if you think beauty is about signaling sexual fitness and attractin...