Welcome to The Money Trench. In this episode, Mark is joined by two of the most influential music publishing execs of the last 30 years, Caroline Elleray and Mark Gale, co-founders of Second Songs.

Caroline and Mark give us an in-depth look at their storied careers in the music industry, sharing the details behind starting Second Songs publishing and management, the dynamics behind working as both business partners and a married couple, and what the future looks like for the company.

The conversation also covers the crisis of confidence and the use of data in A&R, the rise and success of UK songwriters, and the moment when Caroline first saw something special in Coldplay - long before anyone else did.