Vince Beiser | 'The Wire Of Empire' Copper, Power & the Race to Mine the Future

Oct 7, 2025

Vince Beiser, investigative journalist and author of Power Metal, reports on mining, resources, and environmental fallout. He traces copper’s central role in electrification and why demand will skyrocket. Conversations cover Chile’s water-strained mines, Congo’s rising importance, e-waste recycling in Lagos, and the push for deep-sea mining and its geopolitical and ecological stakes.

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ANECDOTE

Gerard Barron's Risky Deep-Sea Bet

Gerard Barron trialed seabed robots and founded Deep Green then The Metals Company but produced no metals yet and burned investor capital.
His prototype proved the technical possibility but regulatory and scientific questions remain unresolved.

INSIGHT

Polymetallic Nodules Lure Deep-Sea Mining

The deep seafloor holds vast polymetallic nodules rich in copper, cobalt and manganese four miles down.
Companies have built robots to harvest nodules, but ecological impacts remain poorly understood.

INSIGHT

UN Authority Grapples With Seabed Mining

The International Seabed Authority (ISA) controls seabed regulations but many scientists and countries call for a moratorium.
Major uncertainty about ecological harm has stalled commercial seabed mining approvals.

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“In the next 25 years, the world will need more copper than in all of human history.”

Amendment - I said 3.2 billion kg of copper in opening question, I should have said 320 million kg.

In this episode, journalist and author Vince Beiser returns to the podcast to discuss his book Power Metal, a sobering look at the metals that make modern civilization possible — and the extraordinary cost of extracting them.

We cover the story of copper — the wire of empire. Beiser reveals why humanity will need more copper in the next 25 years than we’ve used in all of history, and how that quest is reshaping geopolitics, the environment, and our very ideas of progress. From Chile’s drought-stricken Atacama mines to the e-waste yards of Lagos, Nigeria, we follow the real people and places behind our “clean-energy” future — and the dirty truths that power it.

We also unpack the rise of deep-sea mining, the billionaires behind it, and the tensions between state power, corporate ambition, and the planet’s limits. Along the way we meet Robert Friedland, Gerard Barron, Dan Gertler, and a cast of characters who prove that the world still runs on digging — and that the future will too.

If you liked The World in a Grain or stories about how our material world shapes our moral one, this conversation will hit home.

Topics: Resource wars, clean-tech paradox, deep-sea mining, copper shortage, China’s industrial strategy, EV economics, and how to reduce demand without going backwards.
Guest: Vince Beiser - author of Power Metal and The World in a Grain
Subscribe to his newsletter Power Metal Substack

The World In A Grain (Vince's First Appearance on The Curious Worldview in 2021) - https://open.spotify.com/episode/7rf8QskOPtzvp2g8tm3lMk?si=zxA1ycpKRViBFt5S3XTCLg

Timestamps.

00:00 – Intro: Vince Beiser & Power Metal
02:00 – Chile’s Copper Boom & the Atacama Water Crisis
07:00 – Congo’s Cobalt, U.S. Retreat, and Copper Geography
10:00 – The No-Free-Lunch of the Green Transition
12:30 – Lagos E-Waste Recyclers & the Hidden Cost of Recycling
19:10 – Deep-Sea Mining and the Billionaires Behind It
23:00 – The UN vs Trump: Who Owns the Ocean Floor?
33:00 – Robert Friedland, Steve Jobs & Congo’s Mining Empire
41:00 – Corruption, Crony Capitalism & Dan Gertler
47:00 – Commodity Volatility and State Intervention
52:00 – China’s Industrial Patience vs Western Myopia
55:00 – Rethinking Cars, Cities & Demand Reduction
58:00 – The Future of Resources — and Civilization Itself