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In this episode we're joined by Torkil Lauesen for a wide ranging conversation exploring what the transition towards socialism has looked historically like and continues to look like to this day. Torkil Lauesen is the author of multiple books including The Long Transition Towards Socialism and the End of Capitalism and Unequal Exchange: Past, Present, and Future—both published by the great folks at Iskra Books.
Our conversation begins with an overview of Torkil's thesis in The Long Transition—that the shift between modes of production, be it feudalism and capitalism or capitalism and socialism, does not happen in short-term time frames but rather unfolds over longer periods of time in messy, overlapping fits and starts.
The rest of the conversation follows the trajectory of the book by taking individual examples of revolutionary moments and attempts at building socialism and connecting them over time as nodes and learning lessons in the long struggle for socialism waged by revolutionaries across the globe. We begin with the largely unsuccessful revolutions of 1848 in Europe, looking at the "hungry 40s" which led to many social and national upheavals which ultimately did not result of socialist revolution but liberal reform. We explore the lessons learned from the Paris Commune and the emergence of the dictatorship of the proletariat as a crucial element in socialist revolutionary theory, the lessons learned from the failed European revolutions at the beginning of the 20th century, the rise of fascism and the betrayal of the social democrats, and the "socialism in one country" approach of the Soviet Union under Stalin.
We then shift the conversation towards China, first exploring the Cultural Revolution and the lessons that process provided for the movement towards socialism, and then taking a deeper dive into China's role as a "transitionary state" somewhere between capitalism and socialism. Finally, Torkil reflects on China's ability to enter into an advanced stage of socialism and lays out the stakes on which this transition depends on.
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