Finding Joy Anyway with Kate Bowler

Mar 31, 2026

Kate Bowler, New York Times bestselling author and Duke divinity professor who studies stories of success and suffering. She reflects on living with stage IV cancer and defines “the ache.” The conversation explores the difference between happiness and surprise-filled joy. They share how laughter and unexpected moments appear even in hospitals and at deathbeds. Practical ways to invite more joy into ordinary days are discussed.

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INSIGHT

The Ache Is Part Of Being Human

The 'ache' is a universal bittersweet longing tied to love, desire, and unmet yearnings.
Kate Bowler links the ache to deep human goods—love of children, unfinished apologies, and lost meaning that make us feel incomplete.

ADVICE

Don't Optimize Your Way To Joy

Avoid treating the ache as a problem to optimize away with self-help quick fixes.
Kate Bowler warns the wellness industry sells expensive solutions for happiness, but joy arrives differently and isn't achieved by optimization.

INSIGHT

Happiness Is Branded But Joy Is Not

American culture links happiness to self-improvement and consumption, making happiness expensive and exclusionary.
Kate Bowler notes this cultural script contrasts with joy, which doesn't require buying steps or optimization.

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There are some conversations that feel like a warm hug. They make you laugh, feel safe, and a little like you want to cry. Today's show is all of the above. This week on Laugh Lines, we sit down with New York Times bestselling author, podcast host, and Duke University professor, Kate Bowler. (And I’m just going to say it... I would like to formally submit my application to be her best friend.) Kate’s new book, Joyful Anyway, asks a question that stopped me in my tracks: What if joy isn’t something we earn… but something that finds us? Even in the middle of the messy, complicated parts of life?

Penn and I talk to Kate about “the ache”, the difference between happiness and joy, and why sometimes the most inappropriate and grief-stricken moments are the ones where laughter sneaks in anyway. Happiness can feel like something we’re supposed to chase, optimize, and maybe even buy. But joy? Joy is a surprise. It’s that fleeting, soul-expanding moment where, somehow, everything feels okay, even when it’s not. Kate also shares how her stage IV cancer diagnosis changed the way she sees everything. How it stripped life down to what actually matters, and how, somehow, even in hospital rooms and heartbreak, joy still found a way in.

If you’ve been feeling "the ache" lately and need some joy in your life, this insightful and funny conversation will meet you right where you are. (Oh, and Penn wants you to know he still doesn't like Duke basketball... you'll have to listen to the show for more.) We love to hear from you! Leave us a message at 323-364-3929 or write the show at podcast@theholdernessfamily.com. You can also watch our podcast on YouTube.

Learn more about Kate and her book!

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Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness is an evolution of The Holderness Family Podcast, which began in 2018. Kim and Penn Holderness are award-winning online content creators known for their original music, song parodies, comedy sketches, and weekly podcasts. Their videos have resulted in over three billion views and over nine million followers since 2013. Penn and Kim are also authors of the New York Times Bestselling Books, ADHD Is Awesome: A Guide To (Mostly) Thriving With ADHD and All You Can Be With ADHD. They were also winners on The Amazing Race (Season 33) on CBS.

Laugh Lines is hosted and executive produced by Kim Holderness and Penn Holderness, with original music by Penn Holderness. Laugh Lines is also written and produced by Ann Marie Taepke, and edited and produced by Sam Allen. It is hosted by Acast. Thanks for listening!

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