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Lionel Shriver on Immigration, Religion, and the Decline of the West

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Mar 24, 2026

Guest

Lionel Shriver

Lionel Shriver, novelist and essayist known for confronting divisive social issues, discusses shifting political labels and why immigration now dominates politics. She tackles the changing authority of novelists, religion’s role in modern politics, debates over trans medicine and birthright citizenship, and how policy, enforcement, and culture shape integration and social cohesion.

01:25:08

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insights

INSIGHT

Classical Liberalism Has Been Recast As Conservatism

Lionel Shriver says classical liberalism has collapsed into a geography where moderates are now labeled conservative because the left shifted on identity issues like trans rights.
She recast herself from liberal to libertarian to conservative as labels failed to capture the old left-right distinctions.

insights

INSIGHT

Immigration Is The Defining Political Issue

Shriver views immigration as the central political issue of the century that will determine national futures based on selection and assimilation choices.
She argues ideological positions (pro-woke + open borders vs anti-DEI + restrictive immigration) now neatly divide left and right.

insights

INSIGHT

Defense Of Western Civilization Replaced Earlier Rebellion

Shriver felt her sense of purpose shifted from critiquing Western civilization when it was strong to defending it now that she perceives it endangered.
She connects cultural marginalization (reading lists, novelists' influence) to a renewed defensive stance.

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What happened to the modern left

01:33 • 3min

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From liberal to conservative label shift

04:50 • 2min

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Views on Trump and conservatism

06:27 • 1min

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Religious upbringing and the social gospel

07:41 • 5min

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The diminished cultural authority of novelists

12:38 • 2min

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Goals of fiction and tackling divisive issues

14:30 • 2min

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Immigration as the central political issue

16:30 • 30sec

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Economic arguments and welfare's role

16:59 • 21sec

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Wokeism as replacement religion?

17:21 • 6min

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Purpose, meaning, and political fanaticism

23:49 • 5min

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Defending Western civilization

28:20 • 2min

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Trans rights, medicine, and subjective truth

30:36 • 6min

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Predicted backlash against gender-care practices

36:49 • 2min

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Why the left supports permissive immigration

39:16 • 4min

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Crime statistics and immigrant assimilation

43:00 • 6min

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Birthright citizenship and its abuses

48:35 • 4min

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Amnesty, enforcement, and realistic policy

52:30 • 5min

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Her own immigration experiences

57:43 • 6min

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Asylum system reform and selective refuge

01:03:36 • 44sec

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Sanctuary protests and personal responsibility

01:04:20 • 5min

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Sanctuary cities' effects on enforcement

01:09:04 • 5min

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Grooming gangs and law enforcement reluctance

01:13:36 • 34sec

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Regime change and helping oppressed peoples

01:14:10 • 4min

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Strategies to weaken hostile regimes

01:18:31 • 47sec

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Health recovery and returning to activity

01:19:17 • 2min

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Economic anxiety and sovereign debt risk

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Michael Shermer sits down with novelist and essayist Lionel Shriver for a wide-ranging conversation about what happens when old political labels stop making sense. Shriver reflects on the strange moral and political confusions that now shape debates over immigration, identity, religion, and the meaning of tolerance.

They discuss why immigration has become, in Shriver's view, the central political issue of this century; why support for illiberal ideas is often framed as compassion; why the culture of fiction and publishing has grown more timid; and how writers can still engage seriously with divisive subjects without surrendering either honesty or nuance.

The conversation also turns personal: Shriver's religious upbringing, her own personal experiences with immigration, and reflections on the diminishing cultural authority of the novelist.

Lionel Shriver is an author and journalist, a graduate of Columbia University, and a columnist for The Spectator. Her fiction confronts some of the defining issues of modern life: school shootings in We Need to Talk About Kevin, the cost of healthcare in So Much for That, economic instability in The Mandibles, aging and suicide in Should We Stay or Should We Go, and low intelligence and DEI in Mania. Her latest novel, A Better Life, takes up immigration from the perspective of the host.

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