S1E9 – Retail Transformers – April Sabral

Welcome to Season 1, Episode 9 of The Retail Razor Show!

With this episode we introduce a new series– Retail Transformers! Who are the people in retail changing how we look at the business, how we're operating, redefining and reimaging what retail is? These individuals are transformers in every sense – they truly are more than meets the eye!

In this episode we meet April Sabral, CEO of RetailU, online training for the next generation of retail leaders, and author of the book, The Positive Effect, A Retail Leader’s Guide To Changing The World. April shares with us her retail journey, what she has learned about leadership along the way, and how she applies that to train the next generation of retail leaders. If you’re working with aspiring retail leaders, want to better understand what makes a great retail leader, or just want to learn how to grow your retail career to the net level – this episode is for you!

Have you heard! Our podcast is staying strong on the Feedspot Top 60 Retail podcasts list! We’re currently at #22, so please give us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts if you like the show! With your help, we’ll be on our way to a Top 20 spot! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your hosts:

I’m Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and lead partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

And I’m Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. I've spent my career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business. Now I slay franken-stacks!

Together, we’re your guides on the retail transformation journey. Whether you're thinking digital and online, mobile, or brick & mortar stores, we’ll help you cut through the clutter!

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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TRANSCRIPT

S1E9 Retail Transformers - April Sabral

[00:00:00]

[00:00:20] Introduction

[00:00:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hello! Good morning. Good afternoon. And good evening, whatever time of day you're listening. Welcome. Welcome to season one episode nine of the retail razor show. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar a RETHINK Retail top retail influencer and lead partner marketing advisor for retail and consumer goods at Microsoft.

[00:00:35] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host Casey Golden CEO of Luxlock Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. I've spent my career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business. Now I slay Frank and stacks.

[00:00:49] Ricardo Belmar: So Casey, this is a truly momentous episode for us. We finally are launching our Retail Transformers series.

[00:00:56] Casey Golden: Yeah. I'm actually quite thrilled. We've been talking about how there are so many people in retail right now that are really changing how we look at the business, how we're operating and what we need to do next and so much more. This is such an exciting time for this industry and they are true transformers In every sense.

[00:01:18] Ricardo Belmar: In fact one might say they are truly more than meets the eye.

[00:01:22] Casey Golden: that was smooth.

[00:01:23] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I'm pretty skilled at that, actually. So you can give me, give me any small moment to work in a cool eighties, pop culture reference. I am all in on that.

[00:01:29] Casey Golden: I'm sure the appreciation will make it into the comments. Anyway, let's talk about our amazing first interviewee. April Sabral

[00:01:37] Ricardo Belmar: April is absolutely amazing. As listeners will find out in this episode, she's really transforming how retail leadership is evolving. April's got such a wonderful perspective on how retail teams should be managed, how people should be treated and so much to say about what leadership looks like for a modern retailer.

[00:01:55] Casey Golden: A hundred percent. I mean, I really can't think of a more important conversation to be having right now. So let's cut through the clutter and get right to the interview. So kickback or keep your eyes on the road and listen to our session with April Sabral, founder and CEO of Retail U online leadership training for retail managers and author of the book, the positive effect, retail leaders guide to changing the world.

[00:02:19]

[00:02:19] April Sabral Interview

[00:02:19] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome to the show April. It's great to have you here. We've been planning for this for some time and so glad to finally make it happen!

[00:02:29] April Sabral: Thanks. Yeah, I'm excited to be here.

[00:02:31] Casey Golden: April, absolute pleasure. Just to get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're focused on now? What brought you to this, this moment? And how do you see your role transforming leadership in retail?

[00:02:44] April Sabral: Yeah. So I'm the founder and CEO of retail U which is an online leadership learning platform for field operators. After having a 30 year career in retail, working through the stores, all the different ranks, all the way up to vice president just really found an opportunity to build affordable leadership development.

[00:03:03] And what I'm focused on now is really helping leaders transform their leadership in this new era of empathy and compassion and connecting with people. And so I've been focused on you know, getting retail U out there , along with the book that I just wrote introducing a new leadership methodology that I've used over my 30 year career.

[00:03:23] And so I'm coaching and teaching that hour and doing a lot of leadership development coaching right now.

[00:03:28] Casey Golden: That's great. I actually ordered it. I haven't read it yet. But we brought it over to like our head of talent and really super excited to, to read.

[00:03:38] April Sabral: Oh, amazing. Thank you.

[00:03:41] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I've been in the midst of reading it myself and I've been thoroughly enjoying it. I'm finding a lot of really interesting nuggets on I'm going to be popping a few of those in, as we, as we go to get more details from you because you've had such a really interesting journey.

[00:03:55] I find just from reading the experience you've described in the book from all the various retail roles that you've had you know, like you said, just starting from, front lines in the store all the way to being VP and heading up stores. You mentioned a number of really valuable lessons that you learned along the way and particularly around managing people in retail. So I'd really love for you to kind of tell us a little bit about some of those , and maybe think of what kind of advice would you give to other retail employees on, on how to build their retail career and really growing into one of those retail management roles.

[00:04:26] April Sabral: well, I think that, you know, along the way certainly when I started off in retail, I didn't think of it as a career choice. Right. I share a lot about that in the book. It was like a part-time job that I got when I

[00:04:37] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:04:38] April Sabral: moving out of home. And it just, you know, Started providing me a way to, to pay for my bills and look after myself when I was younger.

[00:04:46] And so, however, you know, I think that I was very fortunate because I worked for a huge brands back in the day at pivotal times for them when they were entering new markets. For example, like when Starbucks came to the UK and when the gap came to the UK, I happened to be there. And I was a part. That expunction and then moving to the U S with Starbucks and then to Canada with Banana Republic.

[00:05:08] So I do think I had great opportunities along the way. The one thing I would say about retail, or if you're a manager or if you're not a manager and you're just a part-time sales person to really see it as an opportunity to build your people skills because your people skills are life skills, Right.

[00:05:24] And retail, we teach people life skills, like how to problem solve, how to have confidence in speaking to people how to sell something even like, you know, in life, you've got to sell yourself every single day, whether you're in an, a job or whether you're an entrepreneur. So I think that there's just so many skills that you learn. And my journey along the way, I was fortunate, like I said, I worked for those mega brands back in the day and they had really good leadership development programs back then, they were really invested in their people.

[00:05:50] This was before e-comm came about. So it was a really big focus on talent. And so, what, I've learned along the way is that if you continue to grow, develop your skills and invest in yourself, then you will have a great career and you can move up the ranks and get compensated for it. You know, frontline employees always see it as a job as like, it's not a great career choice because I think they're underpaid.

[00:06:11] But once you start moving into manager multi-site and moving up, everything changes. So that's why I think it's a great career choice. And I also think that it's a huge career because you can move around the world with it. You know, it employs, millions of people. So I think we need to start looking at it a little bit differently.

[00:06:28] And so I would say, work hard sign up for things. If there's different projects that you can get on or transformation happening within your organization, say, yes, I did that a lot. Like I moved around a lot. I was willing to take risks and move to different countries even, or different districts to just take on projects and get myself known.

[00:06:49] And I was always really good with people. And so that just really helped me. I was one of the easiest people to manage, I would say, and the easiest, really easy person to get along with. And just, and that helped me deliver the results that they were asking of me. And so every time I moved up and took on more responsibility, the results would just keep growing.

[00:07:07] So yeah, you have to deliver results, but you have to do that through a team of people.

[00:07:12] Casey Golden: traditionally, it's pretty hard to make the jump from being on the floor and read. Into corporate, any advice there on how to make that.

[00:07:24] April Sabral: Yeah.

[00:07:24] There's not a lot of us that have done that, me and Ron, talk about that all the time and, and how we can help that in our industry continue to build that because there's so many great people in the field. I think it's about building those relationships in advance. Like in the book, I talk about an experience when I first got promoted from a district supervisor into a director role.

[00:07:45] So that was that first experience of going from like field leadership, into working with corporate partners. And I had a lot of feedback given to me that wasn't super positive at the time. I had. Sells re results for the awards for the, you know, the four years leading up to that. So people saw me as very highly competitive and the team that I was going to assume didn't really want to work for me.

[00:08:08] So I had to take some humble pie, take that feedback on and then realize that the relationships that I had, weren't just about the relationships with the people that report into me, but really the relationships that I worked alongside with. And so if you want to get promoted and you want to be successful and work with your corporate partners, you need to have those relationships in advance so that you can influence the things you need to influence.

[00:08:33] And you have the backing because now it's not just about your team in the field, you have this huge team of support in the office. But if you don't know how to build those relationships, guess what? They're not going to help you. They don't know what your job is. So I think just building those relationships and networking with them, just like you would on LinkedIn, right?

[00:08:51] Like network with your corporate partners and think about collaboration and, and don't think like, what are they doing and why are they rolling out this out to us and complain about them? Instead see yourself as a conduit to kind of help them help you and I think that's something that we really need to teach and build that bridge between the field and the head office.

[00:09:10] Ricardo Belmar: of the things I noticed you, you mentioned quite a bit in the book that maybe gets lost sometimes in this industry is that a lot of the roles are defined as sort of a sales leadership role, but you point out many times in the book that you really need to see yourself as a people leader, not just a sales.

[00:09:27] And I guess just based on what you just said, right? A lot of it has to do with how you interact with the people you're leading and the teams that are in the field. And as well as everyone around you, not just focusing on those sales performance numbers.

[00:09:41] April Sabral: Yeah, a hundred percent. It's like, you know, we build relationships with our customers, right? Why do we do that? Because we want to get money out of them. And we want to have them coming back to us and feel good about the experience. And so it is sales is a relationship driven business. So if you want to sell your employees and get them to do something for you for the organization, well guess what, then you need to have a really strong relationship with them because every employee wants to feel three things from their boss that they're cared for, that they can trust them and that they they're going to help them do the job better. And that only comes from a relationship. So, I'm a very results driven leader. And so I had to learn to cook. You know, yes, the results really matter, but the results is an outcome of how you're leading your team. at the end of the day, people get up and come to work every day, wanting to do a good job and for the person that they work for. And if they don't like the person, they work for good luck getting results out of them. It's just not going to happen. You think about that in your own life, right?

[00:10:41] Every time you've had a boss and you've loved them, you're like, oh, I love going to work. I want to do a good job. And when you have somebody that's just a pain. It just can control your life. So it really is about positive relationships. I can't say that enough.

[00:10:55] Casey Golden: I always think of do I want this person to win? Right? Because we all work together so much. And it's so much of a back and forth and it's just like, you know, I want them to want me to win. But then at the same time, you want to work with people who you believe in and you want to win and you genuinely will build that relationship and be like, how can I help you?

[00:11:13] April Sabral: Yeah. And it's funny, right? Because like, when we talk about retail to other people, the let's say I'm in a dinner party or I'm somewhere, and there's not a lot of retail folks. They'd be like, well, you know, you just sell clothes, right. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. We drive millions of dollars and like lead thousands of people and make an impact on their life every day.

[00:11:33] Right. So I think there's a misperception about what we do. And if you ask anybody in the field. Nine times out of 10, why they love what they do in retail, especially at a leadership level. They always say it's the development of people because coaching really exists in the field teams because we're always coaching for performance.

[00:11:53] Just like, a basketball coach, who's coaching his team on the, on the court. It's the same idea. So I think. We're very fortunate in the fact that coaching really does exist and people already passionate about, and that's why I say it's not just a sales business, right? It's a people business.

[00:12:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I was probably one of the most hidden things I think in retail, right? It's this aspect of coaching in the field, that has always been there. I just. Talk about it enough because we always focus so much on the selling,

[00:12:21] April Sabral: a hundred percent. But if you think about sales floor leadership, most companies have flow leadership, cell phone leadership programs, and it's all about coaching

[00:12:30] Ricardo Belmar: That's right.

[00:12:31] April Sabral: in the moment.

[00:12:31] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah,

[00:12:36] Casey Golden: obviously a lot of the focus in this book is really about positivity. Both how you see your career goals and how you. Others in your organization, you talk about how leaders are in a position to foster creativity and imagination to develop new ideas, but you also kind of remind leaders that they don't have to act on every idea that their team presents.

[00:12:58] But they need to be acknowledged. This is an interesting point because I know that there are so many leaders that believe the opposite of this. And they, they don't have to embrace every idea. In order to recognize the contribution of those team members, how do you coach leaders to embrace this approach?

[00:13:14] Because store teams can be quite large and there can be a lot of ideas. And it's not a very formal process of write down all of your ideas from all of these stores. And then I'm going to put it in a, put it in a pivot. I mean, it is so much of just taking in all of this information. And where do you, where do you feel like some, some great recommendations for a manager today that is looking for those contributions? How would you recommend that they kind of extract that?

[00:13:50] April Sabral: I mean that's Yeah. That's, there's so many ways now, like when I was at David's tea, we had an app called nudge. Right. And so that was a way for field employees to kind of write everything down and give feedback. And at the office we could say, Like, like real time, because we would ask questions about things and they would provide their feedback.

[00:14:10] So I think there's lots of technology that can help with that. I think the number one thing is, like you said, that people think that they have to embrace every idea and act on every idea to make people feel acknowledged. I don't agree with that because the thing is, there'll be really great ideas floating around out there.

[00:14:27] And some of them know. That's just, you know, that just can't do that. Maybe it's like the budget's not there or you just don't have the time to do it because you can't focus on 25 things and do it well. Right? Like you can only focus on a few things and do it well. And so, I think this idea of acknowledging what people are contributing in their ideas is very important because in the book I talk about making every person feel valued on your team. And so to make somebody feel valued, they have to be seen and heard. It doesn't mean to say that you have to execute their strategy or their idea. That's not what most people are looking for.

[00:15:03] Most people are looking for just to feel like I said, seen and heard. So just acknowledging that and saying, "That's a really great idea and thank you so much, but maybe we'll park it and we'll bring it back out and we'll use it next time." And I think most people want transparency.

[00:15:20] The worst thing you can do is ask for a whole load of ideas, not use them and never acknowledged that they were given. Right. So I think that leaders just need to have managerial courage. I think it's just being transparent with your team and not feeling pressured, but one of the biggest things that I coach on is leaders having that managerial courage to be able to be transparent with their team.

[00:15:43] Nobody likes conflict and nobody likes going into a conversation where conflict could occur. But it's not it's, it's just human nature. We just don't like that. We kind of shy away from it. So they don't know how to deal with difficult conversations. Right. If you think about people and performance management, it's the same kind of idea, but it really isn't about that.

[00:16:02] It's just, just acknowledge it. Like, thank you so much for that idea and acknowledging everybody's idea, but yeah, you get 150 ideas. There's no way you're going to be able to act on them. You're going to have to pick a few that are going to work with that strategy at that time. Right.

[00:16:17] Ricardo Belmar: and you know, that reminds me of, you mentioned in the book, you, you, your formulas, so to speak for, for this successful process, you call it your act model or accept, create and teach. Right. And you also talk about leading with awareness, which I think was a really critical point and how you accomplish that can kind of walk us through that model and tell us more about, you know, the importance of leading with awareness.

[00:16:40] April Sabral: Yeah. I mean, I'm a self-development junkie, right? My whole life, I have been focused on just self development and reading self-help books and what that has done for me has made me a very self-aware person. Like I know when I've messed up. You know, every boss I've ever had, they're like, we don't need to tell you what you've not done.

[00:17:00] Right. Because you actually know before somebody else tells you because I'm very self-reflective. And so I think going back to leading people and building relationships, the more self-aware you are about how you contribute to that relationship and your communication tone connection the better result you're going to get out of people because you're going to be paying attention, being mindful, being present. . And that just comes again from my years of self-development. And so when I lead that self-awareness is really important and I filter it into this model because this is the way that I've led for over 25 years and incorporates yes, my professional coaching training, if you like.

[00:17:43] But it also incorporates that mindful piece of being present through my self development journey. So the first step. "Accept" it's about being supportive and having no judgment and assumptions on people. This is one of the hardest things for leaders to do because we all judge people, right? There's so much training out there on bias now and inclusion and our natural ways that we do make assumptions and judgements on people.

[00:18:10] And it's simple things like the way somebody looks, the way somebody dressed The way our sister treated us yesterday, like so many things that we judge people on, but when you lead a team it's really, really important that you help them feel supported and encouraged to be themselves. And all the stores that I ever visited every time I would ask a leader what makes them feel successful? It was always around when they felt they were showing up to work, being their whole self and that their boss could see them and hear them. So that's what that pillar is all around. It really teaches leaders to , look at that judgment, stop making assumptions, managing the moment and being present, and really accepting people for who they are.

[00:18:51] And then "create" Is all around being responsible and responsible with your thinking and your envisioning, because I'm a big believer in the law of cause and effect ,

[00:19:02] and manifesting things. Like I know that sounds like a little bit of a spiritual idea and a bit hokey pokey, but honestly it's like nothing is created until you think about it first, you think about a business. anything you think about this business and you have to like mindfully envision it and then you put the plan in work. Right? So create is all about how you create this into your business and thinking mindfully.

[00:19:25] I mean, I used to sit there on Monday mornings and kind of envision what I wanted my week to look like my conversations to look like. I just watched actually. The Serena Williams story over the weekend on a plane. And I was watching her father and I was like, he was totally demonstrating, create in action.

[00:19:42] Cause he was like, there was no way my kids are going to fail. They're going to be the best tennis players. And it was the way that he showed up every day. He just created that. So that's what that pillar teaches leaders. And I really think that that needs to be talked about more in business. I think entrepreneurs get it a lot.

[00:19:58] And then "teach" is really about being selfless and being a mentor and a coach. So if you take a coach approach to leadership, you'll always be passing on knowledge and you'll always be teaching people and it will make you less frustrated because. So many leaders I work with, like I told that person that and why aren't they doing it?

[00:20:16] And I'm thinking, well, did you actually coach them on their performance? And did you actually help them understand and train them? And so those are the three pillars wrapped up. And so I kind of looked at it as like, it's a way of being, that's why I say it's leading with awareness because if you can have more awareness of what your contribution is, you'll have a very highly engaged team.

[00:20:37] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I think that's really spot on . I'm sure we've all been in large corporate organizations where it seemed like the upper tiers of management felt that the obligation was to reward their best performers by just deciding to turn them into managers and leaders in the organization, but never actually giving them the tools , or the methodology on how to actually lead a team.

[00:20:57] I think they kind of assume that, well, if they could manage a project, they could manage a group of people. And that's not always the case, but it's not an automatic thing. If you don't take into account all the different points you just mentioned April, I think that's a really great way to frame that

[00:21:11] April Sabral: Yeah. And like you normally in retail, it's like usually the best sales person on the sales floor that gets promoted. Right, And then all of a sudden they have like five, 10 people and it's not going so well. And then your top performer, it's not your top performer anymore

[00:21:24] Ricardo Belmar: more, Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's just the, see in the management changes to assume assumes that because they hit the numbers so well that they can automatically lead everyone else in doing the same thing.

[00:21:34] Casey Golden: Well, where are you guys working? You would get top sales and like, well, we can't take you off the floor. I'm like, let me create 20 of my me. But can't take you off the floor. You do too much in sales. No, I mean, I think that's great. I mean, we have all had great managers and we've all had learning experiences from not so great managers, but I think, I think there there's something to be said that retail is so many people's first job. And this is really like that building block of you're essentially installing work ethic and process for the first time.

[00:22:12] April Sabral: Yeah. Yeah. And also you're giving somebody, and this is another thing, right? I have a 24 year old, 24 year old daughter, and she was sharing a story with me and Ron about her first retail job and how terrible it was. Experience because of her boss. Right.

[00:22:26] And me and him were like cringing at lunch. Cause we were like, oh, this is so many people's story.

[00:22:32] And the thing is, we're trying to fuel retail with newer leaders because we need them cause bricks and mortar are not going away. And one of the big gaps now is that middle management. And so it starts off with your first job. I was. 17 when I got my first job in retail and I had a great boss. And so it sets the tone.

[00:22:52] Right. And so that, you know, it's so important, like you said, it's the first time somebody's having a first experience of having a boss and a work environment. And, we need to really take responsibility for that and help our managers for say, managers that are like 20, 21, you know, managing an 18 year old.

[00:23:09] How are they doing that? You know, like we really need to help them with that.

[00:23:13] Casey Golden: Yeah, I agree. And if that manager feels like that there is communication and there is way to move up in the company. They're less likely to push down to keep from taking, you know, cause they, they don't feel like they have. So it really gives you that position of leadership to, to inspire team. I loved like my team, like being a manager to like I had 17 year old, 16, 17 year olds.

[00:23:35] And it's just one of my favorite retail experiences, because I got to be their first boss. I still talk to these people most like 18 years later. And they're "Casey, like you inspired me to get in the fashion industry." I'm like, they're like an SVP that Nike now. And I'm like, I'm sorry. It does. It opens up that whole world of like, whatever they're doing and wherever they go, you get to be that moment in somebody's mind of their first work experience. And you get to be that first amazing boss that I've ever had, or you get to be that pain point that changes their perspective of leadership, even moving forward for years, potentially.

[00:24:22] That is your first moment.

[00:24:24] Ricardo Belmar: And it really sets that that first impression is so strong, especially when you think about the age groups we're talking about. And we had this come up in one of our previous episodes where we talked with I think Ron was in that discussion. And in fact, what a Gotham from the George Mason university retail center, and he even pointed out, or when he first asked students in one of his classes, you know, who here has a retail job.

[00:24:48] Lots of students raised their hands. Yeah, they had, they were in a retail job. And then he, when he asked them, how many of you plan on pursuing a retail career and all the hands went down because they all had a bad, first impression and most likely because of, what their experience was. And if we don't do something to change that experience, and what's going to motivate people to pursue a career in this industry

[00:25:07] Casey Golden: Yeah. So, I mean, this kind of brings us back to, you know, you might say it's the reason we're having this conversation today and why the show exists and you know, some, a lot of the motivation behind your book, we're experiencing a movement in retail around changing how frontline staff is treated both by the customer but more importantly by retailer, management teams and where they sit into an organization. I mean, we've had these conversations with Ron Thurston who we're, we've all had I mean, everybody adores him B because it does, we all have that shared experience right. Of having that first retail job that we're able to build a lot of these things off of when retailers think and talk about wanting to change these behaviors the initial why right? That, that initial why? And because my initial, why for my company was the people who I worked with on the floor. I saw that they were hurting and. I wanted to help them. And that was, that was back in 2007 and it's kept me motivated to continue trying to build this solution to make sure that retail staff has a thriving career.

[00:26:13] And I'm not even on the floor anymore. Right? I mean, we go through all of these different. Do you agree that like, maybe by seeing that transformation of how frontline workers are treated on their jobs, do you agree with, this, this whole conversation and this movement, like just really realigning that focus on making sure that that experience is a positive one.

[00:26:38] April Sabral: Oh, Yeah.

[00:26:39] a hundred percent. It should have always been a positive one. I just think that the investment in people got shifted to e-com in the last seven years. , cause that's where all the money went into, building your e-comm your channels, trying to figure out that whole customer journey.

[00:26:53] And so leave like development of teams. But it's put in polls. Like there's a lot of companies that don't have proper onboarding programs for managers right now. And so I think that has to come back around. Pay is a big thing, you know, advocating for pay and like different incentive programs because comp sales, the traditional way of looking at comp doesn't incentivize people anymore because the sales have shifted the mix of the channels where it's coming from.

[00:27:18] So I just think there's many different components that go into it. But one of the easiest things to do is just give your team training and development. So everybody wants you read any exit interview and the top two reasons why people leave is I'm not growing in my career and the person I work for, isn't helping me.

[00:27:35] So it's just like, that's just something that can change an environment. And the clients at retail, U that have implemented the online leadership programs are seeing that in the surveys from the staff, like from just having that coaching and leadership development, full people, it gives them something additional that is not very expensive, but it's a very easy thing to do to shake that environment.

[00:27:57] Casey Golden: So let's say if we were thinking about what are, what are a handful of things that we might be seeing on the transformation of this culture change? Because it's a huge culture change in the organization from like a corporate. Corporate side, from my perspective, we're looking at different compensation, strategies training and development.

[00:28:19] Do you foresee anything else like that stands out that you feel is going to adjust over the next? Let's say two to five years when it comes to how the retail staff and how that really works.

[00:28:32] April Sabral: I mean, I think they need to retell needs to embrace bringing on more coaches. I'm a leadership development coach, right? I'm a Forbes leadership development coach now. And I think that because we assume that way, such a high coaching, high touch environment in the stores, which we are, but at that middle level from district supervisor to director, That's where the gap is right now.

[00:28:52] And I think that a lot of organizations bring on coaches, retailers don't really bring in people from the outside as coaches. So what I'm doing now is working with that middle level and to help make a difference and kind of succession planning people up. So I do think that we need to embrace that more and realize that you may have a leader like a VP or a director, but maybe they do need a leadership development coach to help them actually develop their team and succession plan and help that leadership. And I hope that that's embraced more because it's not something I was ever provided. I had to go and seek that myself outside of the organization that I worked for.

[00:29:30] So I'm really hoping that that gets embraced more because what I'm excited about the future is new leadership coming into those senior spots. Like a lot of us now some of us have, we we've done it and we've been through it, but how do we get the next level up into these seats? Because they're going to be the leaders of the organizations in the next 10 years, and that's going to really shape it. ,

[00:29:51] Casey Golden: I really want them to be the leaders over the next 10 years, you know? It's such being somebody who spent, you know, a, a good portion of my initial career on the floor. There's so much that you've learned that you want to take and do good with at corporate and being able to just even know that you can have a future, that it doesn't have to end with that, that store. I think it's just really, really important.

[00:30:16] Ricardo Belmar: There really should be able to say that, you know, today's frontline workers are tomorrow's retail leaders because they have all the built-in to build. Right.

[00:30:25] Casey Golden: Yeah, you can indirectly, right.

[00:30:27] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. So April along those lines, and if you look out, you know, in case they ask you about the next two to five years, I'm going to be a little closer to near term, like over the next year. What, what are you most excited about when it comes to retail leadership? What do you think is most likely to change for the better.

[00:30:42] April Sabral: Ooh, what am I most excited about that more people get retail U programs because people seem to be finding it now and embracing it. And I think it's a really good way to develop teams. And I just think, like I said, like more middle like that, more of that field leadership moving into. The additional roles, there's a lot of head of store roles posted right now, by the way, the most I've ever seen a lot of director roles.

[00:31:06] So I think we've come through a massive shift in the last couple of years. A lot of people left those roles in those Chris because of what was going on and, and opted to do something else. So I think there's a big opportunity now for that management to move up and really take those seats. So that's what I'm really excited about.

[00:31:21] Just seeing new leadership and new ideas and the new generation coming into that talent pool.

[00:31:26] Casey Golden: How would you suggest someone wanting to go ahead and start taking the first step? Do you see that first step at corporate? Do you see it at that district level?

[00:31:36] April Sabral: Yeah, , one of the things I'm working on right now with a few leaders is just development, planning sessions. So what does that actually look like? Because back in the day, when I was at Starbucks and I was at gap right before in e-comm and all of that came about, we had individual development planning sessions.

[00:31:53] With competency base and we had it on paper and we had these two things that we have to focus on and I think that's really disappeared. So I think if you were going to stop wanting to grow in your career, you need to start tapping on your bosses shoulder and being like, okay, I need a plan, not an action plan to drive your sales.

[00:32:11] But a personal development plan. And if you don't have one, there is so many tools out there. You could go and get one, because if you, somebody said to me a long time ago, if you leave your career in the hands of somebody else, you're going to be waiting for somebody else to promote you. So, you know, I took it upon myself like that whole self development journey.

[00:32:29] Right to read books about leadership, to watch Ted talks, to put a plan on paper for my own personal development, my competencies that would help me drive my business. And FYI is an amazing book that I use with a lot of leaders, but I just think a development planning session. What are the two things that April's going to work on this to become better at my job, that's going to impact the results?

[00:32:51] Is it my communication? Is it my managerial courage? Is it how to have performance conversations? What is it? And if you don't have that on paper right now, and you're in a, in a leadership role and you want to grow. You need to make sure that you have that. And unfortunately, that lacks skill in a lot of organizations.

[00:33:09] So I find myself doing that with leaders and once they've left it, they're like, and I'm doing it with their boss and them. So usually it's like a district manager with a director and I'm sitting with them and we're assessing what they need to do to do the job. And, and they walk away going, man, I have a plan and six months later, people get promoted like all the time.

[00:33:28] So I'm really good at promoting people in succession planning. It's because I focus on their development of skill, not just not just the action plan that needs to drive the results of the operational things, let's say, you know, it needs to be the people's side as well.

[00:33:44] Casey Golden: Well, and then we'll also start with reading your book, right? Start the conversation. It'd be passive aggressive, drop it on some of these guys.

[00:33:57] April Sabral: Well, and that's why I launched the second book. The lift purposely lead positively workbook because so many people read that book and they were like, but how do I actually turn this into a developed plan? I'm like, let me give you one. Now. Now there's a workbook with 15 activities that you can do to develop those skills.

[00:34:15] Right.

[00:34:15] Casey Golden: Oh, that's great. I I'm, I'm a fan of work books.

[00:34:18] Ricardo Belmar: Well, April , thank you so much for joining us today. It's been such a pleasure hearing about your retail experience or your journey, everything that you're doing now with retail U. We probably haven't said it enough that our listeners should all run out and get a copy of your book if they haven't already, because there's so much fantastic advice and ideas on how to just improve your own retail career, as well as how you lead others.

[00:34:42] So how can listeners reach out to you April? You know, learn more about retail u or just follow your work?

[00:34:47] April Sabral: Yeah. So retail U like university.ca that's the website. So you can go on, check out everything that's going on there. And then I have my own, which is April Sabral.com, but you can find that through retail U or just connect with me on LinkedIn. And I always usually respond to people pretty fast.

[00:35:04] So that's where you can find me.

[00:35:05] Ricardo Belmar: Fantastic.

[00:35:06] Well, I want to thank you again for joining us.

[00:35:08] Casey Golden: I am excited. Everybody's going to be reading your book

[00:35:10] Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:35:14] Recap

[00:35:14] Casey Golden: Welcome back everyone.

[00:35:20] Ricardo Belmar: Well, Casey,, I would be surprised if this doesn't end up being one of our most popular episodes so far. I mean, April's background and experience has so much to offer retail leaders just to make themselves better, you know, better at running their business. And most importantly, better at leading their teams.

[00:35:33] Casey Golden: Hundred percent.

[00:35:34] We can't recommend enough that if you're leading retail teams.

[00:35:38] you need to get a copy of April's book and really absorb what she's saying. You'll see the difference.

[00:35:44] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. You know, Casey you've led retail teams before. And you mentioned in the session kind of how your philosophy around managing those teams aligns with April's. So what, what would your top tip be for retail leaders? Is it pretty much the same as what April said?

[00:35:58] Casey Golden: Yeah, I could've stolen April for the entire show. There is a lot of overlap but I think a skill that, that lacks in management is learning how to be an advocate for change we have a lot of incredible talent on regional levels, but find a disconnect at corporate. April provides some great tools to be a good steward, not just from management and going downstream to their teams, but being able to develop those managers to be a good steward of getting that information and managing upstream. It's always been a gap. Even professionally moving from the field to corporate. The information flow and continuity is no different. So managing up, I think is a huge opportunity for a lot of different like HQ corporate to benefit from talent that they've been developing for years

[00:36:49] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's a great point. April definitely had a lot to say about that. I can see what you mean about that gap. I think we've all, if we've worked with retailers have seen the differences between what's happening in the field with store teams versus what corporate's point of view is on that and necessarily, is it the same point of view?

[00:37:04] So there's definitely an opportunity there in that upstream direction to get the information flow right, to really manage that part of the process so that everyone is getting the right learnings from those field teams. And I think April does a really good job too, of highlighting that in the book and in her retail U program on how to really set up those leaders for success, to really understand who it is they're leading

[00:37:25] Casey Golden: I remember many times where it was a weekly conference call, but we didn't have the ability to talk. We just listened

[00:37:34] every single person's phoning in to listen,

[00:37:37] you know, so I think there's a huge opportunity here that April highlights

[00:37:41] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah and I think you mentioned this too in April talks about it. You know, I just remember being in those store teams and when you'd hear that message would come through, oh, there's going to be a call with corporate has to review something or one of these other higher up regional managers is doing a store visit and everybody kind of panics that that's coming and you really shouldn't have to do that.

[00:37:59] Right. That shouldn't happen. It should not be such a massively stressful thing. When somebody from corporate or one of the regional. Or like a VP or somebody comes through the, to the story team, you know, it should just be a normal mode of operation, right. Because if everything is going well, then you shouldn't have to worry about it.

[00:38:13] And I think, the way April kind of positions this as a, as a leadership tool, it makes a difference here. There's that level of understanding that has to be there..

[00:38:23] Casey Golden: I agree. I think we have such an opportunity over the last couple of years that the frontline workers have been highlighted and what these jobs feel like. And how they're being led. And then we have this great resignation as well. , and I, this is a hard job, but it's filled with a lot of passionate people that are highly skilled.

[00:38:42] And, and I have to say most of them are overeducated. I know a lot of people with master's degrees that are on selling Salesforce at, in retail brands, they have master's degrees, they're fully qualified to have a voice.

[00:38:56] they need the opportunity and some refreshers on some tools on getting that management, you know, up management, upstream management, to have those voices heard.

[00:39:06] There's a lot of benefits.

[00:39:07] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, I really hope this episode helps listeners in those retail management positions, especially those that are managing store teams. Right. Understand how important they are, not just to the role they're filling, but to that overall employee experience. Hopefully they'll take away some useful lessons from what we talked about with April.

[00:39:24] And, as you say, Casey, you gotta go out and get a copy of April's book. I think everyone. Yeah, in this industry can stand to learn quite a bit from it.

[00:39:32] Casey Golden: Yeah. Sometimes you have to step back from the tech and realize we're all only human and recognize how you lead, how we're managing people is just as important to the business as anything else we do operationally or with technology.

[00:39:48] Ricardo Belmar: A hundred percent agree with that. And on that note, Casey, I think it is time to wrap up this episode. Once again, we'll want to give a big, thank you out to April Sabral for spending some time with us and sharing her experience and knowledge. Thanks again, April, we look forward to having you back on the show.

[00:40:03] Casey Golden: and that's a wrap!.

[00:40:04]

[00:40:04] Show Close

[00:40:04] Casey Golden: If you enjoy our show, please consider giving us that special five-star rating and review on apple podcasts. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player. So you don't miss a minute. Want to know more about what we talked about today? Take a look at the show notes for handy links and more deets. I'm your cohost, Casey Golden.

[00:40:25] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about us, follow us on Twitter at casey-c golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure and follow the show on LinkedIn, on Twitter at retail razor and on our YouTube channel for videos of each episode and the occasional bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:40:41] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:40:42] Ricardo Belmar: And remember there's never been a better time to be in retail. If you cut through the clutter.

[00:40:49] Until next time, this is the retail razor show.

[00:40:52]