Get Rich Education 591: Mortgage Loan Types Every Real Estate Investor Must Know
Keith shares how a recent trip to Colorado Springs and a changing commission landscape reveal what really matters for real estate investors now
From there, the show dives into the three levers investors truly control—leverage, operations, and relationships—before welcoming lender Caeli Ridge to break down the major mortgage options for investors.
You'll hear how different loan types fit different strategies: from your first conventional "golden ticket" loans, to DSCR loans based on property income, to short-term fix-and-flip and bridge loans that prioritize speed and flexibility.
The episode then moves into how more advanced investors can scale beyond 10 doors, navigate debt-to-income and tax strategy, and even approach financing for short-term rentals—all while highlighting why having the right lending partner and long-term plan can make a big difference to your results.
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Complete episode transcript:
Keith Weinhold 0:01
Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold with new ways to think about your life through goals momentum in the real estate market. Then learn about various mortgage loan types, conventional DSCR, fix and flip, bridge loans, short term rental loans and more. Knowing which loans to use can save you millions and learn the fatal mortgage mistakes you must avoid today on get rich education.
Corey Coates 0:29
since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads and 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com
Speaker 1 1:14
You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.
Keith Weinhold 1:30
Welcome to GRE from Winnebago, Minnesota to Winnipeg, Manitoba, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you're listening to get rich education, the voice of real estate investing since 2014 before we get into the mortgage discussion, where we'll discuss five or 10 different investor loan types and their various pros and cons, which could save you millions over the course of your life. I shared with you that I traveled to Colorado A couple weeks ago, for a goals retreat hosted by the real estate guys, top notch event, I spent extra time there in Colorado Springs, because I find it really livable, and I spent five hours with a local realtor there, one day out and about visiting properties in the area I'm potentially looking for a home or a second home. And by the way, how is this for a price range? The realtor wanted to know what my Buy Box is, and since I'm just learning the Colorado Springs market, I told him I'm willing to spend between 400k and 1.2 million on the property, yeah, pretty wide range, a mile wide. Fortunately, my other Buy Box criteria are more narrow and specific, and I have got to say, I'm surprised at how low the area's home prices are. I thought they'd be higher. Interestingly, before touring homes, my buyer agent wanted me to sign a six month exclusive representation agreement. Fair enough, that's standard stuff. It was on the agreement, though, that I as the buyer pay a 3% commission up on the purchase, and the seller would presumably pay the other 3% to make up that total 6% commission for the agent compensation. Well, historically, the seller paid the entire 6% and this, of course, goes back to the NAR settlement, and that ruling that became effective in August of 2024 you probably remember this, and I talked about it on the show back then, and how it's not really that big of a deal, especially to investors like us, because at GRE marketplace and with our GRE investment coaching, it's a direct model. There's zero commission on either side, and then you, in turn, get some of those savings, but out in the larger world and in the owner occupant world. Well, that rule change that started a year and a half ago. It means that sellers are no longer required to pay the buyer's agent. Instead, the fee is now negotiable between buyers and their agent. The other change is that property listings no longer display the buyer agent's commission offer. But here's what's interesting in practice, and what really ends up happening in the end, in most cases, is that the seller still pays the full commission and compensates both agents that full 6% sometimes it's 5% instead of six buyers and buyer agents, they still operate under the seller pays. And that's largely because that has just been the norm. It's what's seemingly always been done. It's what buyers are used to. And the reason that that often persists. Is because the seller is the party in the transaction that has that thick equity in the property, deep equity, and buyers are the ones often just trying to scrape together whatever they can for a down payment and closing costs. Buyers are not going to be able to come up with another 15k for an agent commission when they're buying a 500k property, that's 3% especially today, this is true because American homeowners the seller then still have record equity positions of about 300k an all time high. Nearly half of mortgaged homes are considered equity rich. What does equity rich mean? It means that the loan balance is less than half of the home's value, yeah, the seller has the means to pay the full commission. So the point is, in practice, the seller, yeah, still pays that full five to 6% commission in the overwhelming majority of cases, and the buyer pays nothing. And if that does change, it's going to take a long time. You know, a lot of these evanescent real estate stories that people think are going to have some seismic impact. It rarely does, like this erstwhile NAR ruling or the 50 year mortgage proposal or banning big institutions for buying more single family rentals. You know, this stuff is like one little baseball sized asteroid striking an entire planet. I mean, it's like a barely discernible impact. Real estate is anchored in one place like Jabba the Hut. It is solid. These stories are interesting, but they're not impactful.
Keith Weinhold 6:52
Instead, I've mentioned it before. What are three things you control in real estate that really matter. And these are evergreen things. First, it's, how many dollars are you leveraging? That's where your wealth is going to come from. In fact, we're going to discuss that today with mortgage loan types. Second, what's the efficiency of operations on your existing properties? And thirdly, what is the quality of your relationships? And actually, we're addressing the third one today too, talking to a lender that you could make part of your team. You can control these three things. They're unyielding, they're evergreen, they're long term, and they all have gratitas and impact those three things, leverage operations and relationships. Now my agent drops me off and picks me up from my hotel here at the Broadmoor in Colorado Springs. This was also the event hotel for the goals retreat. I just extended my stay to hang out in the area. Look at real estate, do some climbing on Pikes Peak. Pro tip for you on hotel room rates, talk to a human being before I booked my stay, I called the front desk and asked them if they could extend the attractive event room rate to more nights on my extended stay. And they agreed. You might have heard of the Broadmoor. It is well known. It's been here for more than 100 years, and it is such a fine place to stay. Let me tell you about this special piece of real estate. In fact, I've thought it through, and I will now hereby proclaim that it is the finest us hotel experience that I've ever had in my life. I say us because I stayed at an amazing place in Dubai. But what makes the Broadmoor stand alone? It's the details and the service. A lot of hotels are nice, but this is on a different level. And I don't say this to brag, and this is because you probably can afford to stay here, yeah, like I have. You might have paid more elsewhere in your life for a lesser hotel, although I am here in the low seasons. Okay, now, sure, you've got views of the Rockies and a man made lake and waterfall and even a beautiful chandelier in my hotel room. The thing that sets it apart, though, is you have this service that feels old world and not corporate. That's what makes the difference. The Broadmoor is horse themed, since horses are a symbol of the American West. There are about 800 rooms here. It's kind of like a self contained adult Disneyland championship golf courses, a world class spa, even an outdoor lap swimming pool like that has lanes that I swam in one morning for. Fine dining, casual dining, access to hiking, fly fishing, even falconry, zip lines, tennis, pickleball pools. Take the cog railway to the Pikes Peak, Summit. Okay. Now, other nice hotels have attractions that are sort of like that, but when I rave about the service, it's the little things they are knocking on my door before 10am to come in and clean the room. And you know how so commonly, when you first check into your hotel room and you look in the closet, there are not enough clothing hangers, and they're all like stupidly mismatched. These all match. They're all nice wood, and there are plenty of them. So I'm talking about these details. I'm telling you. I had dinner at one of the broadmoor's restaurants the other night. I just happened to take a close look at the tag on the napkin. Sure enough, it is made in Italy. I mean, jeez, no detail is overlooked at this stellar place. In fact, here's what I'll do. You know, I'll just completely stop my Colorado Springs home search right now. Instead, I'm going to stop down by the Broadmoor front desk, tell him to give me some moving boxes, because I'm moving into the Broadmoor and I'll be here for the next decade. Start forwarding my mail here and everything. And hey, at least I was courteous enough to give them notice. I can't stay here too long, or my standards will be rising faster than my net worth. Yeah, yeah. Can't go to sleep with a mint on your pillow every night, I suppose.
Keith Weinhold 11:38
Now, the reason I came here now is to attend that aforementioned goals retreat, and let me take all the time and all the resources that I put into being here and distill them into just a few of the most salient takeaways for you. Goals should be smart, strategic, measurable, actionable, relevant and time based, they must be written down. Now, how would you describe yourself to somebody else that didn't know who you were? Write that down next. What do you think your reputation is? How would others describe you? Write that down now that you can see how you describe yourself and how others describe you, you can see that there's a gap there. That gap is what you need to work on. I learned that goal should be written in the present tense, not the future tense. I did not know that before. For example, say it is January 1, 2035, and I own $5 million in rental property. That's an example of how you would do that. So take future events and write them in the present tense. Other questions at the goals retreat that got really introspective are, what are you really going to do with your life? And write down that answer. Sheesh, that is tough. And if you think that's a hard question for you to ask of yourself, the next one is even harder. It's simply why? Why is that where you're going with your life? And then write that down? I mean, would you answer questions like this for yourself? And you really think about it, that can occupy a new segment of your entire headspace. It is a big cognitive load, and a last one to leave you with is to dream not just big, but gigantic. Get it out there, write down a dream that interests you, but it's so grandiose that you're actually embarrassed to tell someone about this stretch dream, for example, for me, it's the first person to walk on another planet. No human has ever done that, and this would most likely happen on Mars. See, this is so grand that is sort of embarrassing for me to even share that with you. It almost makes you sound Loony, like I would have to learn so many new skills to travel to and walk on Mars. But you should write down a bunch of other goals too. You're sort of brainstorming on goals, attainable goals. Recall that is the A in the SMART goals acronym, you want to write down a bunch of attainable ones, not just that stretch one. So for attainable ones, one of them is for me to become the highest man on earth. To give you an example. And I attempted that goal two years ago, and I failed. I told you about that at that time. But see now, compared to my embarrassing stretch goal of walking on Mars, the highest man on earth feels attainable, I know what it takes to achieve it, and it's worth doing, ah, but it's a grind to get there, yet it would be worth it. Those are some quick take. Ways from the real estate guys goals retreat while on stage the event host Robert helms he took a minute respite from the goals material, and he recognized the fact that, as he calls it, the four OG real estate podcasters are all in the same room. One of them is helms himself, and now I feel like the other three are all older and doing it longer than me. I was one of the four that he mentioned. But you know, there is only one podcast that was mentioned from stage, and that is that Robert helms told the audience that they should be listening to the get rich education podcast. That was a nice thing to say, and he is always a gracious giver.
Keith Weinhold 15:45
Next, we're talking about four major loan types, conventional DSCR, fix and flip and then bridge loans. When we discuss the first two parts of it could sound repetitive, but you'll see why we do this, because then you'll be able to compare it to nichey loan types that we discuss, for example, the speed of a bridge loan, where you can get funded in just one week, compared to a slower conventional loan. The mortgage landscape changes. I still remember how in 2012 we had still somewhat freshly emerged from the global financial crisis, and back then, you could only get four conventional loans, four rental properties, not 10 like you can today, 20 married. So get your loans while you can, you probably won't always be able to get 10 loans. We'll start with loan types that are more for beginners, and then we'll get to advanced material. Let's welcome back one of our favorite recurring guests.
Keith Weinhold 16:54
You can make millions more throughout your life by understanding mortgage loans. This is key, and today it's the return of the woman that's created more financial freedom through real estate than any other lender in the entire nation, because she's the president of ridge lender group. Hey, it's time for a big welcome back to the incomparable, yet somehow still so approachable Chaley Ridge
Caeli Ridge 17:16
my Keith, thank you for having me. I love being here. I love what you're doing. It's my pleasure, sir.
Keith Weinhold 17:23
And our followers, our listeners, have been approaching you since 2015 you're one of the longest running guests, truly one of the OGS around here at GRE and now Caeli, before we discuss loan types. You know, we don't really talk politics on this show rather policies, and we're in the midst of a presidential administration that often, in the name of the word affordability, is trying to supremely shake things up in the housing market. Help us dissect what matters and what won't.
Caeli Ridge 17:58
I have found that at least as it relates to current administration, whoever that might be, I wait for the buzzwords or the taglines to become the actual policy. Like you said, That's a good point in this case. You know, you've got things floating around, like the 50 year mortgage cutting off the hedge fund guys and that kind of thing. Whether or not, those things come to fruition. I'm happy to give my opinion on them. I do not think that it's going to move the needle much for the people that you and I serve with regard to I mean, just taking them one at a time, I don't think that the 50 year is going to come to fruition. Just first and foremost, if it did do, I think it would be a good idea for a homeowner, probably not, but for an investor, maybe if there's some way that we can keep our payment lower, given the maturity date of a mortgage for an investment property is usually about five years. I mean, I know that this is a 30 year fixed mortgage, but statistically speaking, the average shelf life of a non owner occupied mortgage is about five years. So getting a 50 year amortization, if that were going to reduce the payment, I don't think is a bad thing for an investor, however, and this may get a little bit technical for the listeners, so I apologize in advance if we were to go to a 50 Year am the adjustments, something called, and you and I have talked about this before, something called an llpa, that stands for loan level price adjustment, I think would be such that it could end up defeating the purpose of having the longer term amortization, because I think the interest rates would be higher and I think they may offset so that was a long way to say. One, I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think it's actually going to get to its final resting place. And two, would it be a good idea for investors, yeah, I think it would be worth considering if it kept the payment lower. Okay, that's that as the other piece to cutting off the hedge funds, the big, you know, BlackRock, some of the big players, and giving them access to the residential housing and first right of infusion or etc, because they've got such deep pockets. You. It's such a small amount to what our individual investors are going to have access to that I don't think that that moves the needle either. So I don't know if I'm answering the question, except to say anything that they're going to tout, I would wait for it to actually become written in stone and pass by the rest of the powers that be before I would get excited about or concerned about any of it.
Keith Weinhold 20:21
This is pretty parallel with what I've been telling our listeners. All these things seem to make splashy news, but I haven't seen anything that's going to make a deep impact yet, whether it's the 50 year mortgage, which probably won't even come to fruition, or if it's doing these mortgage bond buy downs in order to bring more liquidity into the market and bring rates down, or if it sees any of these other things being discussed with these institutional investors, since they already own such a smaller proportion of the housing market than a lot of people think, we'll discuss seasoned real estate investors and their loans shortly, but first for newer real estate investors, you Know, chili, I kind of think of four or more loan types that a beginner should be familiar with. I think of conventional loans, dscrs, fix and flips and then bridge loans, the first one with conventional loans. What are the basics that someone should know?
Caeli Ridge 21:17
So first of all, you should know that there are 10 of these. We call them the golden tickets. I'm pretty sure I coined this, okay, 100 years ago, the golden ticket. We call the conventional aka Fannie Freddie, aka agency. They go by different names, but they all mean the same thing. We call them the golden tickets because it's the highest leverage and typically at the lowest interest rate you can find. Now I do have a hook in our conversation today about that. I'll get we'll get to it. There are 10 of these per qualified individual. So one of the first things that I would tell somebody is, is that if they are a partnership or a husband and wife team, you want to make sure to keep the debt obligation separate, because if you want to maximize these golden tickets, let's just say it's a husband and wife team. You each have, per qualification access to 10, and that includes a primary residence. In fact, let me just take a quick second and define what counts in the 10, because some people get this wrong. So the 10 golden tickets are counted by any residential property, single family, up to four Plex that has a loan on it, where the loan is in the individual name or personally guaranteed by the individual. That's where people get tied up. So if they went out and got a kind of more of a commercial type loan, that was in an LLC name, for example, but they signed a personal guarantee, per Fannie Freddie guidelines, that particular mortgage is going to count against the 10. So those would be some of the first pieces of news or detail I would give them about conventional
Keith Weinhold 22:40
for married couples, don't take ownership in both the husband and wife's name, either the husband or the wife. That way, you can get to 20 rather than 10. And yes, you do have to be mindful that your primary residence does count in that 10 or 20, whatever it might be. Anything else quickly with conventional loans, LTVs so on,
Caeli Ridge 23:01
yeah, LTV can go to 85% loan to value. So you get a little bit extra than you're going to get in some of the other loan product types. It will have PMI, private mortgage insurance, anything over 80% LTV will always have PMI on a more conforming, conventional basis. So keep that in mind. But the factor is pretty low. I would encourage people that are looking to stretch the almighty dollar. Do the math. Look at the 85 with PMI against, say, an 80% and see what are you giving up versus what you're getting. And then qualification stuff, you guys, my dumb joke, it's Keith's favorite. I'm sure vials of blood and DNA samples are sort of required for the Fannie Freddie loans. So just be prepared to supply or submit us the tax returns and pay stubs and bank statements and and all that stuff,
Keith Weinhold 23:44
you'll feel like you're getting fingerprinted almost for a conventional loan qualification. And the second one that I brought up DSCR loans, that's short for debt service coverage ratio. And these mortgages are pretty standard for rental properties. They're underwritten based on a property's income potential. So you know, the way I think of dscrs Chaley from the lender's perspective, is that sustainable cash flow is what matters. The rent has got to support the property's monthly mortgage payments. So we talked to us more about dscrs.
Caeli Ridge 24:15
Yeah, I love this product, and this is for somebody that either can't fit into the conventional Fannie Freddie box, or maybe they've exhausted their golden tickets and they're graduating and moving on. This is a great option that will reduce the amount of vials of blood and DNA samples that you're going to have to submit. It still provides for a 30 year fixed mortgage. The leverage is roughly the same, 80% in most cases, on a purchase. And to your point, the gross income divided by the principal, interest, taxes, insurance and Hoa, if it's applicable, is the simple formula, the easy method I'll give people, just to kind of solidify that math, is that if the gross rents were $1,000 a month, and if the PI TI was $1,000 a month, when you divide that, your debt service is 1.0 Now you can go as low, believe it or not, as low as a point seven, five, DSCR, they have those available be ready for the interest rate to get a little hair on it. Okay, it's going to be higher than what the 1.0 and above is going to be. But you can go as low as point seven, five, those are going to be for the investors that have found a property, maybe in distress, and they cannot show the current market value rent, perhaps, and it's on the low end. So you can still get that done at point seven, five, just be ready for a higher interest rate.
Keith Weinhold 25:30
So the DSCR loan an alternative for you, which might be especially useful, like Chaley touched on, if you've already exhausted your 10 golden ticket. Fannie Freddie loans, a DSCR of 1.2 for example, means that your rent income needs to exceed your principal, interest, taxes and insurance payment by 20% or more. That's what we're talking about here. And then Chile, those were more of loans for the buy and hold type of investor. Tell us about fix and flip loans.
Caeli Ridge 26:03
Yeah. So these are shorter term loan that will allow you to include not just the purchase of the property, but also some renovation or rehab money if you need that. And we're going to be looking at an ARV after repair value. So you've got a purchase price, you've got your renovation or scope of work budget. And then we're looking for an ARV with the ARV to be somewhere around 75% so what that means, if you've not heard of this before, you're going to take, let's say, $100,000 value. And if we want the ARV to be at 75% we're going to lend 75,000 is kind of the mix there. Those are quicker loans. You're going to be paying much higher rates on those. You know, between nine and 13% depending on the deal. The points are also going to be a little bit higher, but a great option for that quick turn and burn where you know your deal has enough skin in it and you can recapture all your capital and make a good tidy profit on it.
Keith Weinhold 26:53
We're talking about basically fixer upper loans here with Chaley Ridge, the president of ridge lending group, yes, these are jalopies that rarely qualify for traditional bank financing. And oftentimes, when I think about these fix and flip loans, I'm thinking that often there is interest only flexibility with regard to those higher interest rates that you need to pay. And I think of it as, you know, a shorter term loan that you've got during your renovation period, oftentimes 12 to 18 months. Does that sound about right?
Caeli Ridge 27:24
Yeah, 6,18, even 24 months. And to your point, yes, all of these are going to be interest only. And one of the cool things is about these loans is, is that, if there's enough room in the deal, right, based on what you need to borrow and what we think the ARV is expected to be, you don't even actually have to be making those interest payments. You can build it into the final payout when we go to refinance you out of this short term loan, or you simply sell the property and pay off that loan. So for example, let's say that your interest only payment is $1,000 a month, okay? And the value of the property is going to be $200,000 and you only took 120 okay, we're going to be well within that 75% ARV. You can build in that $1,000 say, for 12 months, there's $12,000 and just add it to the outstanding balance that you started by owing, and not have to be making those payments on an ongoing basis. It's not rented, right? So it might be nice to be able to factor that in to the actual payoff when you go to refinance that if it's a fix and hold versus go to sell it on a fix and flip.
Keith Weinhold 28:31
Now, long term, we know that the big gains for real estate investors really come from that leveraged appreciation getting that loan. But sometimes there are situations where we might want to act as a cash buyer. And that brings up this fourth of four loan types that I brought up, the bridge loan, short term loans that can temporarily finance a property purchase while you're waiting for a longer term loan to come through. The bridge loan, so I think of it as a pretty speedy loan, if you sort of want to act like you're an all cash buyer.
Caeli Ridge 29:04
Yeah, I like this, and in many ways it's similar to a fix and flip interest only. Obviously the term is going to be shorter, six months, 12 months, up to 24 months, and based on largely relationship, the bridge loan for the purpose that you described, really comes into play for an investor that we know and we're comfortable with, we can fund those inside a week, for somebody that we've done several of these loans for. So for those that need that really quick turn, once you've established yourself as a seasoned, experienced investor in that space, those are pretty slick and easy to get through.
Keith Weinhold 29:39
Why would someone use a bridge loan, rather than a fix and flip loan.
Caeli Ridge 29:43
So if they're in a very competitive market, that might be another option, because those are going to be faster. The bridge loan is going to be faster where they need to say that they're an all cash buyer and they only need seven days to close, or whatever it is. It depends on the municipality in the state. But what if you're at the courthouse steps? And you need cash quickly. Sometimes it needs to be immediate. So that might not be applicable in this case, but if you put the bid in, and you win the bid, and you've got, you know, three days to perform, usually we can get those done. So it's circumstantial. Those would be two variables or two scenarios that that would apply to
Keith Weinhold 30:17
the bridge loan gives you the advantage of speed, but that speed can come at a cost.
Caeli Ridge 30:22
Oh yeah, yeah, you're going to be paying probably three points, maybe four points, and it's short term interest, 13, 14%
Keith Weinhold 30:30
so with these four loan types that we've discussed, conventional DSCR, fix and flip and bridge loans, you can kind of see that there is a loan for most every investment scenario, and there's no reason to rely on only one type, a flipper. Might start with a short term fix and flip loan or a bridge loan and then later refinance to a DSCR or a conventional loan. So consider mixing and matching based on your needs. You're listening to get rich education. We're talking with Ridge leninger, President Taylor Ridge, more when we come back, including steps for more advanced investors, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold
Keith Weinhold 31:06
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Keith Weinhold 32:08
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Keith Weinhold 33:19
the same place where I get my own mortgage loans is where you can get yours. Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than anyone because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage, start your pre qual and even chat with President chailey Ridge personally, while it's on your mind, start at Ridge lending group.com that's Ridge lending group.com
Blair Singer 33:53
this is Rich Dad, sales advisor, Blair singer. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold. And above all, don't quit your Daydream.
Keith Weinhold 34:09
Welcome back to get rich education chili when we go beyond this beginner stage that we've been discussing, how about for an investor just trying to scale to 10 doors worth of one to four unit properties. Now, are there any strategies there or more of a loan order that you would recommend in getting up to your first 10 you know
Caeli Ridge 34:29
I think the strategy starts with calling your lender, ideally Ridge lending group, and having that deep strategy call that, that discovery call, so that we can really understand and plant some seeds that say, Okay, Mr. Jones, these are your qualifications today. This is where you want to be in a year or 10 years. These are the steps that are going to be important that we are mindful of and we take to accomplish and reach those milestones. It's really important to have that baseline understanding of what is your debt to income ratio on day one, what are your assets? Sets. What is your credit? Where do you want to be in a year or 10 years? Right? Do you want 10 properties in a year's time? It's going to be a very different conversation than if you're going to slow roll this and want to establish 10 purchases or 10 investment properties over 10 years. So identifying those details is going to be part one, and then next, in terms of order, I would say, largely the higher price point properties, typically, I would say, put those in one through six. And the reason that I'm saying that is is that the underwriting guidelines under conventional financing, they will change based on how many finance properties you have. So of all of the inner working guidelines and things that go into securing a conventional mortgage loan, the three top most heavily weighted are going to be debt to income ratio, credit score and assets. Okay? And within each one of those, the marker or the qualification guideline changes as you evolve and acquire more property. So the higher up the ring you go, or the rung that you go to 10, the more restrictive the guidelines are going to be. So I would typically say, get the higher price point properties go into maybe one to four, one to six, if that's part of your strategy and your diversification of portfolio ownership. Then after you've established having two or three or four properties and that higher price point it as it gets harder to qualify, potentially, if your debt to income ratio is a little bit tight, you've got the smaller loan sizes that might be less impactful in debt to income ratio. All of this is very subjective to the individual's qualifications and needs, of course, but that might be one rule of thumb that I would take
Keith Weinhold 36:39
gosh, this This is absolute gold in helping you structure the architecture of a growing income property portfolio. And we're coming up on this Super Bowl, and whatever mortgage lender advertises for the Super Bowl or has some big, splashy campaign nationally, you know they are not the ones that are going to have conversations like this for you, they might be fine for buying a primary residence, but this is why you want to have a long term strategy and work with a lender that's aligned with you on exactly that sort of thing. And Chaley, is there a specific way in which one can avoid hitting the Fannie Freddie loan ceilings too early if you haven't already touched on it.
Caeli Ridge 37:22
Yeah, very good question. You know, I think that this is going to come down to a debt to income ratio conversation. It's easy enough to ensure that we contain assets and credit. Those are easier conversations. The debt to income ratio is the piece that's more complicated and can get away from an investor without them even knowing it. You don't know what you don't know, right? So I would say that debt to income ratio and making sure that your lender again, hopefully Ridge lending, because we know this like we know our own faces, making sure they know how to structure and provide feedback and consult on that schedule E, part of the beauty of real estate investing is the tax deductions. Right? Many people get into real estate investing, not for the cash flow, not even for the appreciation, but for that tax strategy, because they're high wage earners, or whatever it may be, and they're sick of paying x in taxes. So the debt to income ratio is key in scaling and making sure you can continue to qualify for those loans. The conversations that we have with our clients really go deep about where we can maximize our deductions to ensure that we get the tax benefit without precluding our qualification on a conventional underwriting basis in the DTI category.
Keith Weinhold 38:35
Now, during my growth as an investor, when I got above 10 doors, one gets above 20 doors. When one gets to 216 doors, I began where I needed to qualify more on a DSCR basis, where the lender is looking at the properties qualification, more so than me. So are there any other thoughts with regard to how one can set themselves up for success in really going big and well beyond 10 doors
Caeli Ridge 39:03
absolutely so once we've exhausted the Fannie Freddie, and I think one of the real value adds about Ridge is that we are not a one size fits all, and we are extremely holistic versus transactional. So having that first conversation and understanding what those goals are, so that we can pivot as we need to maximize the golden tickets, whether that be 10 to 20, right? If you're in a marriage or a partnership or whatever, and then setting up for the DSCR loans when the time comes, and taking advantage of those, there is no limit to how many DSCR loans we can get for one individual. We have yet to file an individual that we've had to say no, and we've done quite a few of the high, high acquisition investors, so I don't expect that to be an issue, but yeah, I think it's about planning, planting those seeds, creating roadmaps together and have those smart discovery conversations.
Keith Weinhold 39:50
Now, as you grow, one way you might diversify is to have perhaps at least a part of your portfolio in short term rentals. So what I. Comes to getting loans for sort of Airbnb or VRBO type properties. What does one look for there? How much does the landscape change versus the longer term rentals that we've mostly been talking about here?
Caeli Ridge 40:10
Yeah, I think that the differences are going to be about purchase versus refinance. If we're just talking about purchases, let's kind of try to keep it in one lane. If we're talking about purchasing a short term rental, you may be limited on leverage. You might lose a little bit of leverage, 5% let's say you could get to 75% and maybe on a short term they're going to back it off to 70% LTV, so there may be reduction in that loan to value. And the way in which we're going to quantify the income is absolutely important to share with your listeners on a purchase transaction, we have access to things like an appraisal. An appraisal is going to give us some median rental income, whether it be long term or short term, that we will use to offset a new mortgage payment if that's needed for the individual's debt to income ratio qualification. Now, if they don't need the rental income to qualify, then it's a non issue. But if they do, like most of us, need that rental income to absorb this new mortgage payment that we are securing for them, how that's going to quantify is important. So if it's not in a short term rental area, let's just say it's kind of off the beaten path, and there may not be enough data points to support the income that you need. It's important to know that up front versus way down the rabbit hole, when you paid for appraisals and you're all the way through the transaction and earnest money might be off the table if you had to cancel that kind of thing. So really important to understand the numbers in advance, I would say, when we talk about short term rentals and how the income is going to be quantified from an underwriting perspective,
Keith Weinhold 41:43
why does a borrower often need to make a higher down payment on a short term rental than they do a long term rental?
Caeli Ridge 41:49
You know, I think that in secondary markets, as we talk about mortgage backed securities and things like that, it's looked at as a higher risk. A short term rental is going to be a higher risk than just the stable long term, long burn tenant is going to be there and they've got their lease for a year, two years or whatever, at a time, the short term rental is more volatile and it's seasonal. It can be I mean, there's all those different factors, so higher risk means more skin in the game for the investor.
Keith Weinhold 42:13
That makes a lot of sense. Does that higher risk also translate into a higher mortgage rate for short term rentals than long term rentals?
Caeli Ridge 42:18
Fannie Freddie versus DSCR The answer is no. On the Fannie Freddie side, the interest rate's not going to change on a DSCR loan. Yes, it can be slightly higher, usually about about a quarter of a percentage point on a short term versus a long term.
Keith Weinhold 42:33
Now, are there any particular markets that lenders want to avoid with short term rental loans?
Caeli Ridge 42:39
No, as long as the property is habitable, and all the other metrics fit Qualifications and Credit and assets and all that stuff. No, there isn't a market that we're going to have any issues with now. We do get the notifications for natural disaster areas, and as that relates to the appraisal and things like that, if it's in a natural disaster area or zone, we may have to hold funding until after the disaster is over, and then we can go and take more pictures and make sure it's still standing and there's no major issues. But otherwise, aside from that, as long as it's habitable, no, there is no market restriction.
Keith Weinhold 43:12
Yes, with that variability of income for short term rentals, you can understand how a lender would be more careful in making a loan, and would want you, the borrower, to put more skin in the game for a short term rental. Well, Caeli, overall, what should an investor do in the next 24 hours to make themselves more lendable before contacting someone like you?
Caeli Ridge 43:36
I would say the answer is sticky, but call rich lending group. That's how you're going to make yourself more lendable. And the reason that I can say that is is that everybody's qualifications and needs and goals are inherently different. So calling someone that understands this landscape and can navigate the battleship in the creek like I like to say, that's the visual aid for those of you that need the visual is the first key. And with that conversation, we're going to be able to identify for you specifically what you would need to do to become more lendable. And it may be nothing
Keith Weinhold 44:07
well over there, Chaley, you're growing. You do loans in almost all 50 states. The GRE podcast has more than 5.8 million listener downloads, and you have helped countless GRE listeners acquire smart investor loans for fully a decade now. Just amazing. So talk to us about all of the loan types that you offer investors there at ridge.
Caeli Ridge 44:30
My gosh. Okay, so I think one of the real value adds for us is that we have such a diverse menu of loan products. We touched on a few of them already. So we've got the conventional Fannie Mae Freddie, Mac stuff. We've got our DSCR loans. We have bank statement loans, asset depletion loans. I can touch on those if you want. Keith, we have our short term bridge fix and flip. We have our All In One my favorite, first lien, HELOC we have second lien HELOCs. We have commercial loan products, and commercial can apply to residential and commercial property. A cross collateralization, commercial for residential properties. That just means, if you're putting 10 single families into one blanket loan, that would be cross collateralization, or if you're buying a storage unit that's straight commercial, and probably even more than that, ground up construction, there's really not a limit to the loan products that we offer, specifically for investors. The only thing we don't have, I would say in our arsenal is bare land loans. Those are hard to come by
Keith Weinhold 45:24
It sounds like you recommend a call in order to get some of that back and forth, to learn how you can best help that investor. But tell us about all the ways that someone
Caeli Ridge 45:32
can get a hold of you. Yes, there's a few ways. Of course, our website, ridgeline group.com, you can call us toll free at 855-747434385, 747-434-3855, 74, Ridge. Or feel free to email us info at Ridge lending group.com
Keith Weinhold 45:49
and you might get lucky. Hey, spin the wheel. Chaele does get on the phone and talk to individual investors herself too. So Chaley, it's been valuable as always to cover all these different loan types for beginners, and then what one does when they advance beyond that. It's been great having you back on the show.
Caeli Ridge 46:09
Thank you, Keith. I appreciate you.
Keith Weinhold 46:16
Oh yeah, a lot to learn from Chaley today. You've got mortgage rates three quarters to 1% lower than they were a year ago. At this time, in fact, last month, they ticked below 6% for the first time in years, and their lowest level in over three years. But when you introduce geopolitical uncertainty, well, that tends to make rates tick up again. Now, just what does happen when you have a lower overall rate trend like we have? Well, in this cycle, it's already spurred an increase in housing sales volume. It surged to 4.3 5 million in the latest reporting month, and that is the hottest annualized pace in nearly three years. Some of the same people who said, wait until rates fall, they're about to realize that prices didn't wait. Demand comes back fast. Inventory doesn't if mortgage rates take another leg lower, we could see quite a refinance wave in balanced markets or in supply constrained markets, bidding wars could follow. Now I've shared with you before that I totally do not predict interest rates. I don't know if anyone should. It is a great way to be fantastically wrong and supremely waste a lot of people's time. Instead, I think it's more efficacious for you to be able to interpret the signs that can trigger a further rate drop. Those signs are a weak jobs report that tends to bring lower rates because the labor market needs the help. So does softening wage growth, GDP below expectations, inflation continuing to cool, or a pickup in US Treasury demand. These are all signs that can lead to even lower rates. In fact, right now, with already lower rates and higher wages, real estate is more affordable than it's been in about three years, but overall, longer term, yeah, income properties still feel somewhat less affordable. It's less affordable than it was in pre pandemic times. That's for real for US investors, though, affordability is less about the price of the property, it's about whether the property pays for itself and grows your net worth while inflation does the heavy lifting for you, that's why it still works for us as investors. Higher prices don't kill investors inaction during inflation does you're not so much buying a say, 350k property. You're controlling it with 70k while your tenant and inflation do the rest. We don't rely on hope or appreciation. We start with inflation, tax benefits and debt pay down, and then appreciation typically happens too. A lot of times, the question for us goes beyond whether or not a property is affordable. The question is whether owning an investment property is better than inflation compounding against us, which is an investor mindset for this era, Ridge landing gear. President Chaley Ridge is a regular guest here because the mortgage space is so dynamic and things change a lot. For that reason, we expect to have her with us every few months this year, I'll see you next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.
Speaker 2 50:01
Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively
Keith Weinhold 50:30
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