Exploring Procrastination, Self-Compassion, and Emotional Management with Dr. Fuschia Sirois

In this episode, we delve into the roots of procrastination with Dr. Fuschia Sirois, a professor of social and health psychology at Durham University, who has over 25 years of research experience in procrastination and its relationship to emotions. The discussion covers how self-compassion can play a critical role in managing procrastination, the impact of societal norms on our productivity, and the importance of addressing emotional responses to improve motivation and reduce procrastination. Dr. Sirois introduces her TEMPO toolkit, designed to help individuals manage procrastination by addressing the emotional causes behind it, providing practical strategies and exercises for better emotional regulation. This episode offers valuable insights for anyone looking to understand and overcome procrastination through a compassionate and emotionally intelligent approach.

00:00 Introduction: The Mystery of Avoidance

01:45 Special Guest Introduction: Dr. Fuschia Sirois

02:02 The Procrastination Conference Connection

02:36 Understanding Self-Compassion

03:51 The Role of Responsibility in Self-Compassion

08:46 Cultural Norms and Self-Criticism

16:46 Global Perspectives on Self-Compassion

27:25 Procrastination and Social Norms Research

28:39 Generational Differences in Procrastination

29:14 Self-Perception and Social Norms

30:07 Financial Procrastination and Its Impact

32:26 Introducing TEMPO: A New Tool for Managing Procrastination

33:35 Understanding and Addressing Emotional Roots of Procrastination

39:59 The Role of Perfectionism and Creativity

49:39 Planning, Risk, and Self-Compassion

52:02 Defensive Pessimism and Contingency Planning

54:41 Conclusion and Resources

Tags

Procrastination, Self-Compassion, Emotional Intelligence, Productivity, Mental Health, Overcoming Perfectionism, Personal Development, Behavioral Psychology, Mindfulness, TEMPO Toolkit

https://fuschiasirois.com/

https://durhamuniversity.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_eJzXFb6SBwNPI46

https://www.youtube.com/@fuschiasirois601

 Introduction: The Mystery of Avoidance 

What is it that makes us avoid the thing to do? Is it the fault of social media? Are we inherently lazy? Is there just something wrong with me? Well, what if I were nice to myself? Would that do something, and how could I even do that in some way that I felt genuine? Would that do anything?

 Special Guest Introduction: Dr. Fuschia Sirois

Dear listeners, I've got another special treat for you today. We're joined today by my special guest, Dr. Fuschia Sirois. Fuchsia's, a professor in social and health psychology at Durham University, with over 25 years of research in procrastination and its relationship to emotions.

We'd connected actually at the procrastination conference in Utrecht, Netherlands, in the summer of 2025.

A lovely city, by the way.

 Understanding Self-Compassion

At the end of one of the lectures, sitting in the audience, she had made this comment about self-compassion, and that self-compassion shows up in recognizing responsibility, taking it on, and maybe the pain that can come with that. That's where self-compassion really starts to shine. I thought, I get it. This makes sense.

So later on that day, I approached her, had a conversation with her, and she really had this way of, um. Recognizing the importance of emotion, not just in procrastination, which is her field of research, but really in who we are.

Again, it really resonated, and I said to myself, I've gotta have her on the show. So here we are. We had this wonderful conversation spanning from individual to societal, from the creative task to the concrete task, and much more. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Here it is.

Today, we've got, uh, uh, Fuchsia Sirois on the podcast today. Am I pronouncing your name correctly, by the way?

Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah.

Oh, wonderful. Fuschia, Fuschia I met in, um, uh, at the, the procrastination conference in just, we had recently in 2025 and in summer, and we may have met even earlier that Did you go to the procrastination conference that was in Chicago? I can't remember if you.

No, I didn't get to that one. Unfortunately. I was sort of not. I really wanted to go, but I think I was in the middle of moving or something, and I wasn't able to come.

 The Role of Responsibility in Self-Compassion

Ah, okay. Very good. So this was our first time meeting then. Fuscia is a, uh, a, a social health, um, psychologist at, uh, Durham University. Um, and, uh, professor there. And, um, what got me going was I, with, with fuchsia, I think, uh, we were sitting at, in a lecture and, uh, at the procrastination conference, and you had said something that just kind of struck me, which was about the relationship between self-compassion and recognizing your own responsibility. Do, do you remember something about this?

I think it, it was maybe, if I'm remembering the correct instance, I think it was around the idea that, um, with self-compassion, really doesn't kick in. It doesn't actually, it's. It's not activated until people are struggling with something, until they're realizing, you know, coming face to face with their own personal shortcomings or flaws or difficulties, you know?

Um, it's not like you walk around going, Oh, I'm being self-compassionate. Like that's just. You can be self-loving and self-kind, but self-compassion is kind of a bigger package, and it is a response to difficult, challenging, stressful situations. So, as a response, there has to be something to trigger it. Um, yeah

I love that way of looking at it. Yeah. And that's, that's where, uh, yeah, that's totally what it was. And, I think it was in the context of that, recognizing personal responsibility, recognizing like your own sense of, oh, I'm, I'm there, there's something about this I gotta take on, some charge I gotta take on, and how difficult that might be.

And that's where a good component of that self-compassion kicks in.

Right. Yeah. I see what you mean by responsibility because yeah, if something. Where there's, you know, so easy when we make a mistake to kind of be in denial, right? Or to kind of go, yeah, that's not on me. That's because of other circumstances and all that. Um, but yeah, once you take responsibility for it, you're right.

And kind of go, right, I screwed up. Right? Or I could have done this differently.

Yeah.

Um, that would've, would've led to maybe less difficult circumstances for myself and others. So once you're right, when that responsive part of that is responsibility, sometimes not always responsibility, but that is one way of looking at it, the acknowledgement of that responsibility is, is difficult.

And that can be a good opportunity then to sort of practice self-compassion instead of, you know, often people do the other way, which is, oh, what's the matter with me? I'm, I messed everything up. And, you know, going to the extreme of responsibility, which, you know, psychologically, um, to me is like blame, right?

Like it's, it's taking, it's going too far with it to a point where you're just sort of wallowing in those self-critical thoughts, uh, for the sake of doing that. But it's actually not very productive in terms of changing behavior or coming to new realizations about oneself.

absolutely. No. That part of you that can really, um. Seems to think that we can fix things, get better about things through, uh, through whipping ourselves in some way, shape, or form. You know, like if we just whipped ourselves hard enough, maybe we'll fix it, you know? And doesn't seem to work.

No, no. It backfires, and, and, and you know, it might work for a very small percentage of the population, I would suggest. I think for many it backfires and there's also a significant. Proportion of the population for which it actually does quite, it's quite harmful. It backfires and, and, and sort of can, um, get you into a further downward spiral or

Absolutely. And, the other thing that you bring up here, and this is all in context of, um. Procrastination, but I think it even grows broader than that. You know, it's like, it's really about, um, uh, you know, in the context, one of the things I appreciate is this, how you relate procrastination and that relationship with oneself.

You know, that, that, um, that self-compassion idea that, um, that something you're, you're hinting at, there is that habitual aspect of beating yourself up. That, that like. You really need to, uh, there's a practice in catching yourself in doing that, and then trying to figure out, okay, now what? Now what do I do so that I'm not doing this?

You know, because it's easy to beat yourself up for beating yourself up, if that makes sense, you know, or

Yeah. Exactly, so that meta level of self-criticism.

Yeah. Yeah. So what are your thoughts on that? How do you, how, how does one, I don't know if habit is the right word, but it's something along that automatic level. Where does, where does that come in? How do you start to introduce the idea of, I don't need to be automatic in this, and what can I do differently?

Does that make sense?

You mean in terms of sort of your response to difficulties.

Yeah. Yeah.

 Cultural Norms and Self-Criticism

I mean, it's a great question. I think there's probably a number of different processes. I mean, one of the things, and I'm this sort of comes to mind for me because this is an area I'm really actively researching right now, is I think a lot of it is driven by those sort of unspoken and internalized social norms that we have. Right about, you know, what is good behavior, what is bad behavior? What makes us a good citizen or a good person, and what makes us not a good person? How will other people view our behavior or what we're doing? You know, we've always, you know, the sort of social cognitive perspectives. We're not operating in a vacuum, even with our own internal thoughts.

These are driven and shaped largely by society and the norms and the cultural factors around us that kind of are there and come into play when it's like. You know, help us judge, should I be doing this? Or shouldn't I be doing this? Is this a good thing or is this a bad thing? Um, how this will look to others is often a reference point that we might use to make that judgment about whether this is, is something good or bad, for example.

I mean, you know, not, you know, I mean there's obviously gray areas, not meaning to polarize it here, but I, I think that those internalized norms, especially around procrastination, you know, um, that those can kind of kick in right away and make us self-critical way, just sort of an immediate response as opposed to if we had, imagine.

You know, a utopian world where we had, um, strong cultural norms around being self-compassionate because we know the value of self-compassion and we know that being self-compassionate makes you more motivated, more productive, a happier person, a healthier person, you know, all these things. If we had this, you know, imaginary society where those were the norms.

Then that would be the automatic, I, I would say is that's where we would kick in. We would screw up on something 'cause we're human. And that's, you know, part of being self-compassionate, that common humanity component is recognizing that we're imperfect and we all make mistakes. But, you know, it's how we respond to those mistakes that makes a difference.

Right. Um, in terms of self-improvement, self-awareness, uh, you know, uh, reaching our goals, et cetera. So in that society. If you were to make a mistake, I would argue that your default would be right. Don't be so hard on yourself. You know, everybody else makes mistakes too, and I've gotta learn from this and go forward, but because we are, you know, living.

In, at least in Western society anyway, where those cultural norms are very much around productivity. Like all these books, like Uber Productivity, get more done in a day, add an extra hour to your day, be more productive. All these types of, you know, sort of drivers, uh, as to what makes for a good person, someone who's contributing to society.

Those are what get activated. Like procrastination has so much to do with productivity, right? We use. These labels, like laziness to describe people who are, um, procrastinators, but those are just, you know. Um, socially constructed, derogatory terms to shame people who are not being productive into being more productive, right?

So everything is in the context of those social norms. If we didn't have those social norms about being super productive, right? And, and you know, at least to that extreme, I, I don't think, you know, I'm not saying it's not good to be productive and reach your goals. We know, you know, the large literature out there about the link between reaching one's goals and, and, and wellbeing.

The extent to which it's really pushed to the limit there, so that it becomes the be-all and end-all of our existence, is to be productive. Um, I think that drives those social norms around feeling ashamed and feeling bad and being self-critical when we procrastinate. And that's where that default comes in when we make a mistake.

Interesting. So. You see it as the sort of like the, there, there's the social world that we live in. The sort of, uh, very, and I agree, there's this sense of, um, action as being, um, valued, uh, more so than, um, reflection more so than, uh, consideration more than, um, meaning, for example, reflection

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

You know, there was, it makes me think of, um, uh, I'm blanking on it.

I, I did a, I did a bit on it. I forgot who had originally said it, but there was this theme that had kind of developed in, uh, in, not only in research, but in, in, in academic, but just in, in corporate and in the world in general. The sense that the only things that matter are things that can be measured and, um.

I think most of what matters cannot be measured. You know, I think most of what's meaningful, it really can't be. And, along those lines, this, you know, most of what can be this, this, I think false way of looking at it is I think exactly what you're talking about, this value on action. I can see action,

Yeah. Yeah, it's true.

And what you see somehow becomes more, more.

Valued externally to us and we lose what we can see internally. Um, so that sense of, um, self-awareness, you know, is, um, there's practice to it. You know, there's just still reflecting what you're saying. I, I, I think of two, uh, like two, two people. I quote. One is Bob Ross, the painter,

Yeah.

the happy accidents.

What a lovely phrase that is. You know, it's. It's still like, I, I still love that phrase. And um, and the other one is Miles Davis, who would say there, you know, don't worry about mistakes. There are none.

Mm.

But his, maybe even both, they're, they're describing a, a, a process of mastery. You know.

There are mistakes until you figure out how to make those mistakes, not mistakes.

And, and I think what, okay, I, I think I'm finally figuring out what I'm, where I'm going with this. Um. Which I think you're doing in, in some way is the question of how do we approach self-compassion in a way that's not like, I dunno, if you remember Saturday Night Live with Stuart Smalley, this character that was played by um, Al Franken, who would look in the mirror and he would say, um.

He, he would, it was like a joke about self-compassion. It was kind of, um, he would look in the mirror and say, uh, uh, I'm good enough. I'm smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like me. And then he would just, it.

It was like this. I guess the question is, how do we get ourselves to that genuine state of self-compassion?

How do we get ourselves practicing along that path and that skill? That's what I'm trying to get at.

yeah. No, I see what you're saying. Um, yeah, I mean, a lot of it. You know, so if we go to like, you know, um, Kristen Neff's website self-compassion dot org, right? Like, you know, one of the first things that she always says is you have to become aware of your internal script. So what's your internal script when you screw up something, when you make a mistake, or when you're unhappy with something in your behavior, or something doesn't go your way, right?

Um, what is that script? And most people aren't aware of that internal script.

Yeah.

Um, you know, it, it's, it's just there operating, right? Like a default, just an automatic drive. And so, you know, the first thing is to be aware of how you respond to difficulties, and you, 'cause you can't change anything until you can respond.

But I think, you know, like what you're saying about the things that we don't value, things that aren't as seen. Um, and maybe that's one of the reasons why we don't. Think about being self-compassionate. Um, but yeah, I, I mean, short of changing those value systems, but I think also some of these are, are, are linked to other work ethics, you know, the protestant work ethic and things like that.

 Global Perspectives on Self-Compassion

Like, it's just really like just go, go, go right and, and, and be hard on yourself. Um. You look to, um, and I can't remember if we, we had this conversation after the conference, but you know, there was a study that looked at, um, self-compassion levels across, uh, three different parts of the world. So they looked at self and they compared the mean values to see.

So as a nation, which was more self-compassionate, just 'cause it's gotta get a glimpse at maybe how different cultural values were, were, might be operating and shaping, uh, people's, uh. You know, default levels of self-compassion. So they looked at them in the us, um, in Thailand, and I believe it was Malaysia. Now, which country do you think would have the highest and which would have the lowest of self-compassion? Just taking a guess there.

I'm voting the lowest self-compassion with the us, but the highest, I can't guess. I, I, I, I would, uh, I don't know. But then again, I, I, these are generalities obviously, and I'm, I'm sure that there's someone in the US who's highly self-compassionate, and of course, ones who are not.

Yeah. These are, you know, these are nationwide main scores. I mean, there's always, you know, deviations within that. But as a looking at that level, it does tell you a little bit about the culture. So, um, no, the US wasn't the lowest.

It wasn't. Okay. All right. I even got the know a lot of people. wrong.

Yeah, a lot of people say that. So, actually, the highest scores were in Thailand.

Okay.

Because that is the seed of Buddhism

Ah,

Self-compassion as a concept is rooted in Buddhist philosophy.

Sure.

Right about kindness, you know, mindfulness and common humanity, right? And those are three strong principles. So you have a culture that's pretty much indoctrinated into that way of thinking. You know, there are other religions in, in Thailand, I've been there, and there's, there's certainly a, you know,...