The Michael Shermer Show Not Monsters. Not Madmen. Just Men.
Apr 21, 2026
Jack El-Hai, author and medical historian, discusses his research into Dr. Douglas Kelley and the psychiatric testing of top Nazi leaders. Short, sharp stories about Hermann Göring, courtroom strategy, and a manipulative duel with Kelley. Conversations explore normalcy among perpetrators, ambition and Dark Triad traits, limits of psychiatry, and lessons for preventing authoritarianism.
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Nazi Leaders Were Disturbingly Normal
- Dr. Douglas Kelley concluded the top Nazi defendants were not psychiatrically ill but disturbingly normal.
- Kelley tested 22 defendants with IQ and Rorschach assessments and found ambition, opportunism, and normal personalities, not madness.
Power Hunger Drove Many Nazi Leaders
- Many Nazi leaders shared drive for power, opportunism, and careerism rather than a shared ideology.
- Kelley found ambition and a desire to climb the Nazi ladder, not a common psychiatric disorder, explaining how ordinary people wielded extraordinary cruelty.
Psychiatrist And Goering Engaged In A Duel
- Kelley and Hermann Goering developed a manipulative, competitive relationship during prison interviews.
- Both men were intelligent, charming, and manipulative, leading to a psychological duel in Göring's cell.
