What does your CFO actually want to hear from you?
In this episode of That’s What I Call Marketing, Conor Byrne sits down with Michael Kaminsky former analytics leader at Harry’s and Founder & CEO of Recast to unpack the real tension between marketing and finance. After Michael’s Harvard Business Review article on the CMO–CFO relationship circulated widely (and resonated strongly with CFOs and CMOs), this conversation goes deep on:
- Why marketing forecasts keep missing
- Why finance doesn’t trust marketing numbers
- How to talk about ROI and risk credibly
- The problem with last-click attribution
- How to structure experiments properly
- What “expected value” really means for marketers
- Why brand investment must be framed as capital allocation
If you’re a CMO, Marketing Director, Head of Performance or brand leader trying to build a stronger relationship with your CFO — this episode is essential.
⏱️ Chapters
01:02 – Michael’s time at Harry’s: analytics, growth & experimentation
05:00 – The early days of podcast advertising & growth bets
06:15 – False precision in marketing measurement
07:23 – Brand tracking, survey data & real signal
08:42 – The Harvard Business Review article
09:07 – Why CMOs and CFOs feel tension
10:13 – Speaking the language of finance
14:21 – Discounted cash flow & thinking in timelines
15:00 – The credibility killer: marketing marketing
15:32 – Why being willing to be wrong builds trust
18:20 – Talking about risk & expected value
22:18 – Incrementality & structured experimentation
25:05 – Recast: forecasting & bridging marketing and finance
28:28 – The forecasting trap: last-touch attribution
30:19 – Compounding learning & agency transparency
32:00 – Final reflections: marketing as growth co-pilot
🔎 Topics Covered
- CMO CFO relationship
- Marketing finance alignment
- Marketing ROI
- Forecasting marketing investment
- Incrementality in marketing
- Last click attribution problems
- Media mix modelling (MMM)
- Brand investment vs short-term performance
- Capital allocation in marketing
- Building trust with finance
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Check out Recast here https://getrecast.com/
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