Optimal Discomfort and Anti-fragility

Ep. 232 | In this potent and profound conversation, Zen teachers, Integral Facilitators, and conflict mediators, Diane Musho Hamilton and her student and co-author Gabriel Wilson, eloquently reveal the practical benefits of a life founded on contemplative practice. What they bring home so effectively—both in this conversation and in their new book, Waking Up and Growing Up—is how much we have to gain from an interface of traditional Zen and contemporary knowledge. “Buddhist practice is the most genius way to work with human suffering,” Diane says, and grounded in awareness of the fundamental oneness is where we want to be when engaging in social or political activism, or when facing any kind of conflict. “It’s the evolution of consciousness and the attendant set of skills to support that,” she continues. We can awaken to an awareness of our true nature, and then take up the gauntlet of growing up—“straight up maturation, straight-up ego development.”

In fact, what Gabe calls Diane’s “experiment” is nothing less than evolving the 2,500-year-old tradition of Zen, preserving and innovating, holding on to the wisdom, power, and grace of the tradition while bringing in the contributions of the West: psychology, shadow work, neuroscience, emotional development, and stage-appropriate interpersonal skills. Also, how to make sense of power dynamics, work with authority, and allow being pushed out of our comfort zone. A testament to Diane and Gabe’s own inner work, this groundbreaking conversation is inspiring and impactful, punctuated with deep, personal, experiential wisdom from both guests that speaks directly to how we can best wake up, grow up, and show up in this challenging world of ours. Recorded July 24, 2025.

“There’s nothing like sitting with what is to prepare you to be with what is.”

Topics & Time Stamps

• Introducing Zen teachers, authors, and Integral Facilitators, Diane Musho Hamilton & Gabriel Wilson (00:44)
• What drew Gabe to Zen, and what lack did he feel Waking Up and Growing Up would fill? (01:35)
• Evolving the Zen tradition: what do we need, particularly in western Buddhism, that we’re not finding? (05:26)
• Using Ken Wilber’s framework of waking up and growing up (08:50)
• What does “waking up” really mean? (10:02)
• Practice IS enlightenment: the awakened mind is only found in the here and now (12:23)
• There’s nothing like sitting with what is to prepare you to be with what will come (17:30)
• The realization that there’s no big opening to be had (23:05)
• What does “growing up” mean? (24:07)
• Providing students with interpersonal skills to accommodate their evolving levels of development (27:00)
• Writing for the younger generations: how to make sense of power dynamics, work with authority & allow being pushed out of your comfort zone (31:15)
• The wisdom of learning from those who have gone before us (34:49)
• Growing the capacity to deal with intensity in the moment (38:59)
• The example of John Lewis: being inclusive of the ego but not limited by it (44:29)
• How do we respond to what’s happening without imagining it shouldn’t be happening? (49:15)
• Holding the vision that we are fundamentally one when we engage in social activism (51:18)
• Be wary of using aggression in the name of love (54:11)
• Within the container of conventional religious traditions, developmental tasks are different for each stage (59:40)
• The teacher/student relationship cuts both ways (01:07:21)
• Preserving and evolving the Zen tradition for today’s world (01:08:55)
• Buddhist practice is the most genius way to work with human suffering (01:13:40)
• Looking to the future: are we innovating too much? (01:16:24)
• A lot of technology is racing us to the bottom of our brainstem; where we put our attention is important (01:20:32)

Resources & References

• Diane Musho Hamilton, co-founder of Two Arrows Zen Center
• Gabriel Wilson, founder of Freedom & Fairness
• Diane Hamilton & Gabriel Wilson, Waking Up and Growing Up: Spiritual Cross-Training for an Evolving World
• Diane Hamilton, The Zen of You and Me: A Guide to Getting Along with Just About Everyone
• Diane Hamilton, Gabriel Wilson & Kimberly Loh, Compassionate Conversations: How to Speak and Listen from the Heart
• Ken Wilber, Welcome to the Integral Approach (Integral Life website)
• Ken Wilber, Finding Radical Wholeness (where Ken expounds his “waking up, growing up, cleaning up, showing up” model
• Deep Transformation’s A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series
• Dōgen Zenji, “Practice is enlightenment” (from the Fukan zazengi)
• Joanna Macy (1929-2025), environmental activist, author, and scholar of Buddhism, general systems theory & deep ecology
• Sam Harris, philosopher, neuroscientist, author & podcast host
• John Lewis interview with On Being’s Krista Tippett: Love in Action
• What is Buddha? Zen koan (case 21) in The Gateless Gate: Classic Book of Zen Koans
• The Hidden Lamp: Stories from Twenty-Five Centuries of Awakened Women, edited by Zenshin Florence Caplow, Reigetsu Susan Moon
• Tristan Harris, co-founder of the Center for Humane Technology

---

Diane Musho Hamilton is an award-winning mediator and a teacher of Zen meditation. Diane served as the Director of Dispute Resolution for the Utah Judiciary from 1994 – 1999, mediating many matters, from simple neighborhood disputes to complex, multi-party negotiations. She was most recognized for her skills in facilitating difficult conversations about race, gender, and religion in Utah. She began working with Ken Wilber and the Integral Institute in 2004 and has held transformative containers for people interested in their development for more than twenty years. Diane is the co-founder of Two Arrows Zen, a Buddhist practice center in Utah, and is the author of four books: Everything Is Workable, The Zen of You & Me, Compassionate Conversations, and, most recently, Waking Up and Growing Up: Spiritual Cross-Training for an Evolving World.

---

Gabe Wilson is the founder of Freedom & Fairness, an executive coach, facilitator, and conflict mediator whose work sits at the intersection of organizational leadership, adult development, and contemplative practice. He is a monk in the Soto Zen lineage at Two Arrows Zen Center and a certified Integral Facilitator. Gabe co-authored Compassionate Conversations: How to Speak and Listen from the Heart and Waking Up and Growing Up: Spiritual Cross-Training for an Evolving World with Diane Musho Hamilton, and holds a master’s degree from Stanford in Policy, Organization, and Leadership Studies.

---

Note to Listeners: A Change in Our Podcast Release Schedule

Starting with this episode, Deep Transformation is changing to a new release schedule. Going forward we will release one full, undivided episode every other Thursday at the usual time (5 a.m. Eastern Time). No more part 1 and part 2 of each episode weekly! We hope you will enjoy having the full episode available to listen at your convenience and won’t miss having a new release every week. If you would like to comment on this change, please email us at support@deeptransformation.io. Thank you so much for all your support. In gratitude, the Deep Transformation Team

---

Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell