Phase Four & Operations Other Than War

Former NSA and CIA analyst Alma Katsu joins us to discuss her career in intelligence, from the analog era of NSA and early hacking programs to CIA work on social media, disinformation, and emerging technology. She also breaks down how real intelligence work differs from Hollywood spy fiction, and how her experiences shaped novels like Black Vault and her upcoming book on Havana Syndrome.
This episode also digs into Iraq War planning, the failure of Phase Four strategy, AI, propaganda, tech regulation, and the challenges women faced inside the intelligence community.
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"Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio"
00:00 — Start 
01:34 — Writing spy fiction after a career at NSA and CIA
05:02 — Real spies, “Slow Horses,” and the myth of James Bond
07:15 — From aspiring writer to accidentally joining NSA
10:56 — Starting as an NSA analyst and learning the intelligence world
13:51 — NSA before computers: analog intel, index cards, and the digital transition
16:53 — Inside one of NSA’s first hacking teams
22:13 — Building the CIA’s early social media intelligence program
31:08 — AI, propaganda, and the collapse of trust in open-source information
39:44 — Iraq War planning and the failure of Phase Four strategy
54:23 — Leaving NSA for CIA after the Patriot Act era
01:00:02 — Secret backchannels, Havana Syndrome, and real incidents behind the novels
01:21:19 — CIA publishing battles, pre-publication review, and returning to NSA
01:36:34 — Substack, viewer questions, NSA vs. CIA culture, and final thoughts

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