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Cass Sunstein, Harvard professor and author of the new book On Liberalism: in Defense of Freedom, joins Offline to examine whether small-l "liberal" values like freedom, human rights, and the rule of law will be able to survive an illiberal president. Cass compares and contrasts what Trump and Vance are doing with the actions of the Bush and Reagan administrations, debates whether liberalism is a strong enough antidote to fascism, and reveals his #1 pop obsession.

For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email transcripts@crooked.com and include the name of the podcast.