Return to judgment-based engagement

Join Simone and Malcolm Collins in this eye-opening episode of Based Camp as they dive deep into the shocking realities of US military Rules of Engagement (ROE). From bizarre restrictions like matching enemy firepower to avoiding mosques and residential areas, they reveal how bureaucratic red tape under past administrations—especially Obama’s era—hamstrung American troops in conflicts like Afghanistan and Iraq. Drawing parallels to the American Revolution’s guerrilla tactics against rigid British formations, the Collinses discuss unintended consequences, enemy exploitation, and how new tech and leadership under Trump are bypassing these rules for more effective, targeted operations in Venezuela and Iran. They critique “woke” policies, praise outcome-oriented tech integrations, and share personal insights on morality in war, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Plus, fun family anecdotes about their kids at the end!

Episode Notes

In a recent All-In podcast, Emil Michael, the current Under Secretary of War for Research and Engineering (previously the senior vice president of business and chief business officer at Uber, and the chief operating officer of Klout) mentioned that past rules of engagement in places like Afghanistan were “insane,” including requirements such as if an enemy had a small gun, U.S. soldiers also had to respond with a small gun, creating a bizarre expectation of “parity” instead of overwhelming force.

Timestamped link:

He basically claimed that legalistic and restrictive rules meant soldiers constantly had to make complex legal judgments in real time, which left them at risk and prevented them from simply focusing on taking out the enemy and protecting their own people.

Michael says the rules of engagement were subsequently relaxed and are more now along the lines of “use your judgment,” but what were they before???

Pete Hegseth offered a peek at how things were in his 2024 book, The War on Warriors, in which he:

* Recounted a scenario where troops were told not to immediately shoot an identified enemy with an RPG

* Mocked lawyers as “jagoffs” who prosecute troops more than enemies

* Implied the rules of engagement required constant legal consultations in fluid combat situations rather than allowing judgment to “take out” threats and protect allies decisively.

* Complained about rules of engagement in Afghanistan that enforced parity or restraint, like matching small arms with small arms, or putting tight limits on force in populated areas to minimize civilian harm under directives like the 2009 ISAF Tactical Directive

Rules of Engagement 101

* Rules of Engagement dictate how U.S. forces are permitted to initiate and/or continue combat engagement with other forces.

* Rule breaking is punished with anything from formal reprimands to demotions, career stagnation, getting fired, or criminally prosecuted for a war crime and possibly sentenced to prison or even death

* They’re supposed to ensure compliance with national policy, international law (e.g., the Law of Armed Conflict), and mission objectives while allowing for self-defense.

* There are different types:

* Standing: General

* Supplemental: For specific operations or theatres

* While the U.S. emphasizes detailed, standing ROE with inherent self-defense rights, other nations integrate similar principles but often with more centralized control and less public detail. Enforcement

* The important thing to know:

* There are a LOT of rules

* We can’t even know them all

* Many ROE documents are classified, but unclassified portions and summaries are publicly available

* The rules got uniquely difficult for a spell

* Between 2009 and 2017, under Obama, they shifted to be more restrictive through NATO-based directives designed to support counterinsurgency and reduce civilian casualties, support “clear and hold” strategies and respect cultural sensitivities

CJCSI 3121.01B: Standing Rules of Engagement/Standing Rules for the Use of Force for U.S. Forces

This is the core rules of engagement document unless overridden by theater ROE.

Quick facts

* Issued June 13, 2005 by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (CJCS)

* Is an update to CJCSI 3121.01A

* Influential under Bush (2001–2009) for initial Afghanistan invasion (Operation Enduring Freedom).

* Applied across Bush, Obama (2009–2017), Trump (2017–2021), and Biden eras.

The 2009 ISAF Tactical Directive

* Issued by the NATO International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) Commander (Gen. Stanley McChrystal)

* Issued July 6, 2009 (revised from earlier directives)

* This was one that Pete Hegseth found particularly trying

* Its key guidance

* It warns against “winning tactical victories but suffering strategic defeats by causing civilian casualties or excessive damage and thus alienating the people.”

* Commanders must scrutinize close air support, indirect fires like mortars or artillery, and limit them especially near residential areas or where civilians might be present.

* Troops are directed to break contact, wait out enemies, or use non-lethal escalation of force (e.g., signals, warning shots) instead of immediate lethal action if feasible.

* No explicit language mandates “matching force with force,” but the directive’s emphasis on minimum necessary force and civilian protection effectively promotes proportional responses over overwhelming firepower.

* Self-defense rights are affirmed—”nothing in this directive is intended to hinder an individual’s right to self-defense”—but only when troops face imminent danger of being overrun.

* It prohibits ISAF entry or firing into homes, mosques, or religious sites except in self-defense, requiring Afghan forces for searches.

* Commanders cannot further restrict guidance without approval, addressing overly cautious interpretations that limited patrols or ammunition readiness.

* What it did:

* Re-emphasized protecting Afghan civilians

* Limited use of close air support (CAS) against residential compounds to reduce collateral damage.

* Stated that “excessive use of force” alienates populations and increases risks.

* Allowed self-defense but required scrutiny of force in populated areas.

COMISAF’s Initial Assessment

This was a multidisciplinary review of the Afghanistan situation. It informed the rules of engagement by stressing population protection as imperative for mission success. It led to more restrictive tactics to counter Taliban resurgence.

* Also issued by the NATO International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) Commander (Gen. Stanley McChrystal)

* Submitted August 30, 2009

* Shaped Obama-era surge (30,000+ troops) and ROE supplements for ISAF operations.

DoD Law of War Manual

* Issued June 2015 (updated 2016);

* Applies to Obama, Trump, and Biden administrations;

* Informs ROE in ongoing operations.

USFOR-A ROE Supplements (Afghanistan-Specific)

* This was issued by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for US Forces in Afghanistan

* It was active during Biden’s 2021 Afghanistan withdrawal

* It builds on the standard rules of engagement, it included three components

* Inherent right of self defense

* Mission accomplishment

International Rules of Engagement

The Law of Armed Conflict (aka International Humanitarian Law (IHL))

Generally restricts who and what may be attacked and how warfare may be conducted, in order to limit unnecessary suffering and protect civilians

Core principles

* Distinction: Parties must always distinguish between combatants and civilians, and between military objectives and civilian objects (homes, schools, hospitals, cultural sites). Direct attacks may only be made against lawful military objectives, not against civilians or purely civilian objects.

* Proportionality: Even when attacking a lawful military objective, parties must not launch attacks expected to cause incidental civilian death or damage that would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

* Unnecessary suffering: It is prohibited to employ weapons or methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering to combatants, such as weapons designed to inflict untreatable wounds or lingering, agonizing death.

* Military necessity (within LOAC limits): Only those measures not otherwise prohibited by international law that are necessary to achieve a legitimate military aim may be used, and even then they remain bounded by the principles above.

Episode Transcript

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] This is so much person

Malcolm Collins: than ever could’ve imagined. It

Simone Collins: was. I know, I know.

You enter a mosque or a religious site and suddenly, oh, you can’t shoot.

Speaker: Oh, oh, oh. Hey. No. Now you’ve had your turn. You’ve just taken two volleys and we haven’t even had one. You’re doing very poorly in this war, I might say.

Simone Collins: what did this mean about where. Our enemies and people trying to hurt our efforts, were going, it meant they went straight to the residential areas.

Right? Because they discovered, oh, for some reason, the US troops don’t like fire their guns when we go near the houses,

Malcolm Collins: They’re literally playing by like vampire rules.

Speaker 10: May I come in?

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm. I’m excited to be speaking with you today, even though I can’t really emote, I’m sorry we’re covering mouth surgery, but, something happened that completely changed the way I look at the US military. So, you know how, like we picture in movies and stuff, there’s the, [00:01:00] the troops, you know, the the, they’re fighting. There’s the helicopter, they’re Pew P enemy, right? So they see the enemy and you shoot the enemy. Right? But like in reality, apparently it’s a little more complicated, especially during the Obama years, it’s, you see the enemy and you’re like.

Oh it’s the enemy. Shoot. The enemy. Wait, no, no. Is it legal? Are they, are they near a house? Are they near civilians? Did they just go into a mosque? No. Okay. Don’t shoot them. Wait. No. Wait until they’re shooting at us. And there’s like all these rules and you’re just not sure if you’re allowed to do it because we are.

We are basically hamstrung by this, this red tape of all these rules of engagement that prevent us from in, in many cases, even really preemptively defending ourselves. And I, not enough people know about this, and I think a lot of people are like, oh, the US military really like missed stuff. And if in Afghanistan and Iraq and in all these other places when they don’t realize that.

We are. So we have our hands tied behind our back by all these rules. They’re not necessarily,

Malcolm Collins: [00:02:00] no. Hold on. I wanna, I wanna take a step here to sort of summarize. This was really shocking to me when I learned about this, is there is that modern joke. About, you know, the British people fighting the Americans during the Civil War or something.

Yeah. Being like, why aren’t you guys in a line? Like, what, what are you doing now?

Speaker: I do believe that we did agree upon noon. Is that correct? It’s not a problem. It’s all right. It is Just in the future when you say you’re gonna be someplace, it’s in everything. Okay. Very good. Very good.

Um, shall we have at it then? Alright, would you like to take a few moments to get ready?

Malcolm Collins: It wasn’t revolution exactly like that. There was reasons that they fought that way, but it was genuinely a bad way to fight If the other side’s using gorilla tactics. Mm-hmm. In, in specific ways of using gorilla tactics the Americans got really good at.

And the British really were trained like, fight like this, this is how you use guns. Mm-hmm. And they, it did not work very well in this particular [00:03:00] context. And, and although it did work at times better than I think a lot of, like the, the, the lay history would tell you like the Revolutionary War was hard to win.

It was not an easy war. Yeah. Huge for us to win that. Really cool by the way, beating the world’s biggest superpower as by far their wealthiest colony. By the way, I don’t know if people know this but the average American at the time earned way more than the average bitters person. And not just that we paid way less in taxes despite all of our whining, America never change.

By the way, I dunno if people know this state, but on average a British person today earns less than the American, than an American living in the poorest American state. Yeah. By a pretty significant margin too. So like, if you are British and you wanna like, make fun of like uneducated, like Trumpist Americans and like wherever you consider it to be, un the most uneducated, Alabama, Mississippi, whatever they’re still out earning you.

They’re still out teching you. Mm-hmm. Okay. So. You know, maybe get off your high horse

Simone Collins: published. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, you’re, you’re

Malcolm Collins: [00:04:00] absolutely, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Okay. I just wanna finish this and talk more so you don’t have to talk as much because I know you’re talking

Speaker 2: If you’re wondering her about the bruising on Simone’s face, or we had to stop content production for a week, , she needed to have a part of the interior of her mouth cut off and then put onto another part of the interior of her mouth because it was thinning. Um, and yeah, it really severe surgery.

Malcolm Collins: I can, I just. The point being is that this sort of structured holding ourselves back has been happening really until this administration within many of our modern conflicts. And one of the things that’s freaking people out about the way that we are fighting and so dominating the war in Venezuela or the war in Iran is because the, the, this.

Trump team, this new right team is ignoring these rules.

Simone Collins: Well, that it, it’s, it’s different. It’s, it’s not just that. But I’ll get into it because what [00:05:00] we need to talk about is one, just these rules exist and you should know about them because it’s not fair to really think about our military. Like messing up in an area when you consider the rules that were governed by two, I think it’s really important to think about what these rules do in terms of the unintentional consequences they cause.

Because while they’re often not published and kept pretty secret because obviously having them spelled out is just serving the enemy the enemy still picks up on patterns and then knows how to exploit you. Because of your stupid rules. Or not stupid, but like, because of your ethical rules. And then third, these rules kind of fly out the window in the face of New Tech.

And that was sort of the context in which I actually learned about these rules in the first place. So I, I was first clued into this because I was listening to a recent All in podcast. Which is this American podcast headed up by a bunch of tech VCs and in this all in podcast, Emil Michael, who’s the current undersecretary for worse research and engineering, but he was previously the senior Vice President of business and [00:06:00] Chief business Officer at Uber, and he was also the Chief operating officer at Clout.

Do you remember clout?

Malcolm Collins: Clout. You don’t.

Simone Collins: Yeah, clout. It was like this, like social cachet tech startup. He’s basically a tech startup guy. He mentioned that past rules of engagement in places like Afghanistan were insane, including requirements such as if an enemy had a small gun, the US soldiers also had to respond with a small gun, creating this bizarre expectation of parody instead of overwhelming force.

He basically claimed that legalistic and restrictive rules meant soldiers constantly had to make complex legal judgment judgements in real time, which then left them at risk and prevented them from simply just focusing on taking out the enemy and protecting their own people. Like, oh, well, can I shoot the enemy?

No, there’s all these rules like check the rule book. What will the lawyers say? Which is an insane thing to think about when this is like a life or death emergency situation and people are shooting at you, you know? But

Malcolm Collins: he,

Simone Collins: they think they’re

Malcolm Collins: walking into like A-B-D-S-M club. Like, what’s the safe word?

Simone Collins: Like, no, seriously though. Like, actually, which is insane. Michael said the rules of [00:07:00] engagement were then subsequently relaxed though in this most recent Trump term. So at least now they’re more along the lines of like, use your judgment. But then this had me thinking. Oh my God, what were they before?

And you can get a peak of this from Pete Hegseth. He who wrote this 2024 book called The War on Warriors, in which he, for example, recounted a scenario where troops were told to not immediately shoot an identified enemy with an RRP G. So like the enemy’s there, they’re like, no, no, don’t do it. He, he mocked lawyers as Jagoffs, you know, JAG is, is, military court who prosecute troops more than enemies. Which I could totally see being the case implied that the rules of engagement required constant legal consultations in fluid combat situations rather than allowing judgment to just take out threats and protect allies decisively. I just can’t imagine being like, call the lawyer.

It’s just insane to me. And then also complained about rules of engagement in Afghanistan that enforced parody or restraint like Michael was referring to in [00:08:00] the podcast. Like matching small arms to small arms. Or putting tight limits on force in populated areas to minimize civilian harm under directives like the 2009.

ISAF tactical directive, which I can go into more. So one, again, this is saying that these rules exist, but I also understand why they do. I just didn’t know they were there. I didn’t think about it. And I’m sure a lot of the people who formerly served in the military who listened to this podcast can totally school us on this.

But I, I also just, like you said, had always thought of America as being this like. Tactically flexible and innovative country. ‘cause like always it was us beating these red coats who were, you know, oh, I’m gonna follow the rules. We’re gonna get in our failings, like formation and shoot each other. You know, whereas, you know, we were like in the trees being all patriot.

Speaker: Oh, oh, oh. Hey. No. Now you’ve had your turn. You’ve just taken two volleys and we haven’t even had one. Now, I know that for a lot of you Americans, this is your first parlay, but there are [00:09:00] rules and modern warfare, well, not dumb beasts.

Right now since you’ve taken two volleys, we’ll take two. Volleys. And then you may return fire. You are in effect losing a turn. Right. Hi. Hi. Now you know the rules. I just explained them to you. You’re doing very poorly in this war, I might say.

Simone Collins: Well, this,

Malcolm Collins: this reminds me of the top comment right now under our video that we just filmed on the war in Iran. Yeah. He’s like. It turns out you can just do things.

Simone Collins: That’s, and that’s what I thought we were, and I mean, we are returning to that largely thanks to tech and, and that’s, that’s kind of what’s also really exciting to think about because what, what the new conflicts in Venezuela, or, well, not conflicts, but what our, our strategic actions in Venezuela and Iran have demonstrated is that.

W because we’re using drones and tech and tactical teams, we are able to a large extent, [00:10:00] to subvert a lot of both the, the endogenous like US based rules as well as the international rules. Well,

Malcolm Collins: I,

Simone Collins: they just don’t apply in the same way.

Malcolm Collins: Fun, fun aside. Here is the second to top comment. Somebody laugh, crying saying, because I thought this was so funny from yesterday.

Mm-hmm. Are there Jews in Sky Room? Because I was talking about racial stat modifiers for Jews. If they were in Sky Room and someone goes, are there Jews? And what’s so funny about this statement is at first I laughed because it was hilarious, and then I was like. But Kyron does have two ethnic groups that we are related to the North and Bretons that are clearly meant to be Scandinavian people and British people.

And then the, the Empire, which is clearly meant to be people of Italian descent. And so they all have stat modifiers. Why are, why not Jews? The jit? We’ll just say. But anyway, continue. [00:11:00]

Simone Collins: So just to give you a picture of what rules of engagement are, because I just thought it was like, I don’t know, some kind of turn of phrase.

I didn’t know rules of engagement were a thing. Did you?

Malcolm Collins: I had no, I, I thought rules of engagement, like best practices?

Simone Collins: Yeah. For like

Malcolm Collins: winning an engagement.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Not for

Malcolm Collins: like

Simone Collins: Yeah, like laws of physics. Like, oh, the rules of engagement. Shoot the enemy before they shoot you. That kind of thing. Right? Like, Hey, maybe don’t shoot civilians.

That’s a dick. Move the Right, right. No.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. But instead it’s like a game where like it takes you out when you start shooting civilians.

Simone Collins: We need to be, no, it’s worse than that, Malcolm. It’s worse than that. It’s worse than that. You went out bounds

Malcolm Collins: you?

Simone Collins: No. No. Okay, let’s get into it. Rules of engagement dictate how US forces are permitted to initiate and or continue combat engagement with other forces.

So when you start the game of Pew P, then the rules that kick in, okay. And, and rule breaking is punished with anything from a formal reprimands or demotion. So like, oh, who [00:12:00] cares? Like, you know, you’ve just been formally like. Bad, bad dog to basically career stagnation getting fired or criminally prosecuted as a war criminal and, you know, sentenced to death.

So like is, is military personnel are going to really think twice about breaking the rules of engagement. Like this is not just a, we,

Malcolm Collins: we truly live in a society run by evil bureaucratic women who semen is disposable.

Simone Collins: I mean, it’s. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, you’ll see, so they’re, they’re supposed to, like, I understand technically how they came to be.

They’re supposed to ensure compliance with national policy and international law, like the law of armed conflict and mission objectives while allowing for self defense. So it’s generally like, okay, well there’s, you know, like. We have to honor this thing. And so like, don’t get the US in a diplomatic, you know, bind because you did the thing.

And there are differing types, okay? So there’s not just [00:13:00] rules of engagement, there’s not like the rule book. There are general rules of engagement, and then there are supplemental rules of engagement, which were either for like specific operations or for theaters. So it’s like, you know, settlers of Catan, but then like.

Or like Monopoly, but then like Monopoly, this edition. Or like, that’s not even a good, because like the rules you get like additional rules on top of your rules. Okay. It’s rules all the way down and rules all the way up. And they also update and, and while the US emphasizes, really detailed standing rules of engagement with inherent self-defense rights.

Other nations are, are a little bit more like broad or like, they, they’re, they’re more what we thought, right? They have like centralized control and less public detail or, and, and I think they’re a lot simpler. I think the US is unique in being both. More open about what our rules are and very detailed with them.

Like I think our bureaucratic creep is worse than in other countries. Like other countries sometimes just use [00:14:00] like a UN template or this one international one that, that I can mention later. But the important things to know is there’s a lot of rules. We can’t even know them all because most of the documents are classified for obvious reasons.

Like if the enemy knows explicitly your rules of engagement, they know exactly how to like. You know, step right behind that line and like go, no, no, no, no. Boo boo. And like you can’t shoot them, which is really annoying. And they, they also got uniquely difficult for a spell, and this is what Pete Hegseth was dealing with.

This is what Emile Michael was referring to between 2009 and 2017. Under Obama, they shifted to be more restrictive through this NATO based directive designed to support counterinsurgency and reduced civilian casualties so it supported clear and hold strategies and respect cultural sensitivities.

So this is where like the wokeness came in and they have really catchy names. Like cjc SI 3 1 2, 1 0.01 B [00:15:00] really rolls off the tongue.

Malcolm Collins: I, I love by the way, one of the other comments was the paradigm of you break something, you buy it is over.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: If you hurt me and I punch you in the face, I’m not buying you dinner after.

And I, I love that con

Simone Collins: Yeah, for real though. But that, that whole word salad of letters and numbers that I read off is the, the current standing rules of engagement that are used by the us. Armed forces. They were issued in 2005 and they replaced C-J-C-S-I 3 1, 21 0.01 A. Okay, so this is version B.

Alright? Can, are you already like, dying from the bureaucratic overreach?

Malcolm Collins: I, I wanna shoot these people, whoever made this stuff up, that is my target list.

Simone Collins: I know it’s, it’s, it’s really bad. So again, this, this applied a pro across Bush and Obama from 2019 2017, and Trump from 2017 to 2021. And the Biden eras.

And what made it worse though [00:16:00] is, and this is what Heg Seth really complained about, is the 2009 ISAF tactical directive. So this is on top of the of the. I’m not even gonna give you the, the standing rules of engagement. So already there’s like big rule book rules of engagement on top of it. The 2009 ISA of tactical directive, this was issued by the native, sorry, nato, international Security Assistance Force Commander who was General Stanley McChrystal.

It. This was issued in 2009. And its key guidance warns against winning tactical victories, but suffering strategic defeats by causing civilian casualties or excessive damage and thus alienating the people. In other words, it was like, you can’t do anything that makes people mad, I guess. And so you

Malcolm Collins: can’t team America A, you can’t blow up the

Simone Collins: pyramids.

Yes. And say, I got

Malcolm Collins: the

Simone Collins: terrorist.

Speaker 5: This jeep is filled with explosives. We are going to take their lives and our. We [00:17:00]

Speaker 3: we’re gonna what?

Surprise cock bags.

All we did it.

Simone Collins: Like, oh, is that our reputation? Maybe we should like not do that, and I can understand, you know, like.

Malcolm Collins: I disagree. We need to team America this all the way.

Simone Collins: Yeah, no, this was the multi-Team America. This is, yeah. That is exactly what the, the ISAF tactical directive was.

Commanders were in informed that they had to scrutinize close air support. So don’t back people up. And, and also indirect fire fires like mortars or artillery. Were supposed to be sort of like pulled back, like, don’t use that so much. And, and limited especially near residential areas or where civilians might be present.

So clearly, and you could tell this from like all the news stories and all the, like, everything you heard about how things are playing out in [00:18:00] Afghanistan, what did this mean about where. Our enemies and people trying to hurt our efforts, were going, it meant they went straight to the residential areas.

Right? Because they discovered, oh, for some reason, the US troops don’t like fire their guns when we go near the houses, when we’re

Malcolm Collins: hanging out in schools.

Simone Collins: Yeah. What does that mean? That means that they put civilians in their direct line of fire. Like it,

Malcolm Collins: this is, this is happening in Iran right now. Because all of the, I and guard facilities have been just completely nuked. Mm-hmm. They have begun to set up in schools mm-hmm. And hospitals as their primary places of operation. Yeah. Essentially because they’re trying to cause things that optically look bad for the United States. Yeah. I want to know like am MAGA people when everyone’s like, oh, you blew up a school, you blow up.

I don’t care. Okay. This is a tyrannical government that has held this country hostage for 45 years. Take your chances, blow up what you need to [00:19:00] blow up. Make sure the guard is decimated.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Again, this directive is, is sort of past us now, but during this time also. So in addition to all that, troops are directed to break contact, wait out enemies, or use non-lethal escalation of force, like signals and wording shots, like, I don’t know, like stop, don’t shoot.

Instead of immediate lethal action if feasible. Right. So like, I don’t know, like a guy’s pointing a gun at you or being like. I’m gonna blow this place up and you’re like, please don’t stop. Please

Malcolm Collins: don’t.

Simone Collins: I would appreciate it if you, it’s like a, a gentle parenting. Gentle parenting enters the military,

Malcolm Collins: so you should not have done an episode this funny right after getting mouth

Simone Collins: surgery.

I’m, I know my mouth is dying right now, but I don’t care. Like my stitches are like this ragged all of ‘em out. I can’t even but here’s the other thing. So while self-defense rights were affirmed. [00:20:00] Nothing in this directive is intended to hinder any individual’s right. To self-defense. But, but you can only engage in self-defense when troops face imminent danger of being overrun.

So it’s, it’s when they’re charging at you, it’s not when they’re like, you know, like they’re there but they haven’t yet attacked, so we have to wait. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: you’ve spotted, you’ve identified them, you know what’s up.

Simone Collins: Yeah. We know their plans, you know, but they haven’t started yet. I mean, they might change their minds, so, you know, don’t stop them.

This is terrifying. And also commanders, they, they couldn’t further restrict guidance without approval. So this I there, yeah, just like I, this turned the battlefield into this whole like. Wait, let me call the lawyers first and until, and then like, you know, then this is why Hegseth essentially told some of his troops apparently to [00:21:00] just kind of ignore it.

‘cause you, I don’t know, you die if, if you would follow a lot of this advice. And I, I, I, I understand again why this was implemented. People want to do. Protect civilians. They wanted to limit close air support against residential compounds. They wanted to reduce collateral damage, but I think in the end they probably caused more of it because the enemy, or you know, whoever, your opponent, I, I’m not trying to demonize anyone, but like, they’re not dumb.

They’re going to discover like, oh, if I run into a, like if I shoot at you and then I run into a house. You don’t shoot at me anymore. I shoot at you and I run into a mosque. You don’t shoot at me anymore. It’s like you’re in the green zone of like a game, like, oh, oh, I’m in the same fox. Can’t get me here.

That’s actually what the world was. Yeah, I, I mean, I’m just like, this, this changes the way I view Ooh.

Malcolm Collins: They’re literally playing by like vampire rules. Like tell the holy [00:22:00] site.

Speaker 7: Get at me.

Speaker 10: May I come in?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Oh, oh, oh. Can’t get me. Like, and I know, I’m sure they figured this out, you know, like these, these rules, you know, we, we try not to publish our rules of engagement explicitly.

Like some parts of them are declassified. But like, of course, someone’s gonna start noticing patterns and then they’re gonna tell all their friends, you know, and tell everyone, be like, well, you know, clearly the US military has a weird rule. This is so much person

Malcolm Collins: than ever could’ve imagined. It

Simone Collins: was. I know, I know.

You enter a mosque or a religious site and suddenly, oh, you can’t shoot.

Malcolm Collins: I mean,

Simone Collins: and I, I, I’m a big rule follower, you know me. But like if someone, for example, like. I don’t know, hurt a kid or a baby and then like stepped into a mosque. I’m going into that mosque and I’m killing them, and then I’m gonna get court martialed, and then I’m gonna get, I’m gonna spend my life in jail or [00:23:00] something.

You know, like, this is it. It’s just, it’s so insane to me that we have punishing our troops for. I mean, dealing I war is hell. Right? Like it it’s a terrible thing. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a worst case scenario. But it, yeah. Anyway, so there’s, there’s all these different, and like this, this isn’t even all of the rules.

There’s also the, the DOD Law of War manual that was issued in June, 2015. There is the US FOR. A ROE supplements that are Afghanistan specific. And then there’s also the International Rules of Engagement which are primarily the, the, the Law of Armed Conflict, which is also known as International Humanitarian Law, which influences some of our rules of engagement and also other countries go by.

It, it, it has more reasonable core principles like. Parties have to always distinguish between combatants [00:24:00] and civilians and between military object objectives and civilian objections like homes and schools and hospitals. And you have to take into account proportionality, like even when attacking a lawful military objective.

Parties must not launch attacks expected to cause incidental civilian death. Or damage that would be excessive in retaliation in the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated that you can’t cause unnecessary suffering, which I appreciate. And then there also has to be, I

Malcolm Collins: don’t care about that cause of the suffering you want, whatever.

Simone Collins: Well, here’s the problem with all these rules, and I, again, I understand that they come from a good place. Like I, I SAR and gas, terrible. Like all this stuff is horrible. These rules. We, we go back to like this foundational story that we were all taught in in US history as kids, like we trounced the British and the American Revolution.

And this is a gross oversimplification, obviously, because we didn’t play by the rules and. [00:25:00] War doesn’t exactly involve playing by the rules all the time. And also in these wars, like in Afghanistan, we were, we were playing by all these rules and our opponent was not. And it didn’t go well, and a lot more people got hurt because of that.

And so I think the, the really difficult thing is one, these rules backfire because your enemy learns that you’re playing by them and then exploits that knowledge. But two, when the enemy doesn’t play by those rules, like what’s the point? You know, the, what you need to do is finish the conflict as soon as possible to, to minimize collateral damage.

And I mean we’ve done that in the past in really horrific ways like with Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example. And I don’t know, in the larger calculation of things if that did ultimately save a lot of lives, but that was the reasoning behind it, right? And so it’s just, I just, I don’t know, this, this just changes the way that I’ve looked at most recent wars.

And

Malcolm Collins: well, I, I find it really frustrating, and I might even do a full episode on this, is that [00:26:00] people even dither about the morality of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Maybe like the most moral act ever in history. The decal was not even that high. It was, it was lower than other bombing campaigns during the war which nobody complains about.

I’m talking about civilian decal. We know from. Things like the Battle of Midway and stuff like that, that the Japanese were in incredibly dug in would die to the man and would kill civilians as our troops advance. They basically,

Simone Collins: oh, they’re incredibly brutal. They were so brutal. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They would, they

Simone Collins: were certainly not playing by any of the rules of engagement discussed in, in any of these international or US based.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. If we had had to invade the mainland, the number of Japanese, and I’m not even talking about like our own troops, like I shouldn’t even need to talk about the Japanese, like less of our troops had to die, do what we need to do, right? But the number of Japanese who would’ve died in extremely much more brutal.

Then was the result of radiation from the [00:27:00] bombs would’ve been astronomically higher. Any, any realistic at the hands of other Japanese, any realistic look at what the Japanese did to populations, their own populations as they were treated, as they were pushed back, and, and, and how far they fought for their land.

Shows that.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I get, I just get really sick of that whenever anyone’s like, the, the bombs were so immoral.

Simone Collins: It’s like, yeah. But I mean, like those rules that I described, especially the, the short term Afghanistan ones were like, basically no, no preemptive strikes were allowed. Everything had to be reactive.

Which is, you know, ultimately can cause so much more work.

Malcolm Collins: And the funny thing is, is it doesn’t even change how you are going to come across in the media. Yeah, how you are going to come across. You know, I point out that even by Iran’s own numbers, so far we’ve killed 1,300 people in this campaign by their own numbers.

They killed a thousand, sorry, 3,500 people who are just civilians protesting. That’s by their own numbers. Now, keep in mind that the [00:28:00] number that we killed is probably inflated, and the number they killed is probably really low outside figures to put it at around 35,000. Mm-hmm. So even if we go with their inflated number and the outside number of 35,000 you know, we’re looking at like one 30th, the number of not civilian deaths, but death in total from our bombing campaign.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And you know, this, this to me. The fact that we have Iranians out there yelling from their windows death to the, to the new, to the newly appointed Ayatollah.

Malcolm Collins: That answers it for me. I know. It’s, I know, it’s, I know. We’re doing the right thing.

Simone Collins: Well, what’s so impressive too, though, is.

That the Trump administration has found a way to not only, I [00:29:00] mean, one, they’ve eased up the rules but two, they have found a way to circumvent them by being so targeted, so strategic as to know like the exact room in which targets are within underground bunk. Well,

Malcolm Collins: that’s

Simone Collins: our Jews who

Malcolm Collins: are helping us know that.

I mean, US intelligence has not always been the best historically, but

Simone Collins: we’re getting better. And I mean, I think just also like the, the mere fact. I heard about this in the first place from a Silicon Valley tech dude who is now high up in the US military is meaningful that we are now beginning to bring in very outcome oriented.

Yeah. One of, one of our

Malcolm Collins: friends who we know from working in venture capital,

Simone Collins: Andrew Driscoll.

Malcolm Collins: D Well, Dan Driscoll runs the Navy. What did the the, the

Simone Collins: army. Malcolm,

Malcolm Collins: he runs the Army, so, so I can’t remember. I used to talk with him like every week. So he is a, a good friend of mine.

Really cool guy. I like him, like good [00:30:00] family man.

Simone Collins: He’s the United States Secretary of the Army. Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: That’s just the way you mean. I know him. Yeah,

Simone Collins: I

Malcolm Collins: know him as like cool based VC from like, the South who,

Simone Collins: well, and again, that’s, that’s meaningful. Like it gives me a lot of hope that like in the past our military was really just getting run into the ground by bureaucratic morass.

You know, we had leaders of the military feeling like their, their people were being more intact, or, sorry, more attacked by the internal. Lawyers of the military then by like, you know, they, they weren’t being defended, they were being attacked internally. From that to tech enabled, incredibly effective, hyper-targeted missions and operations with minimal collateral damage that are able to circumvent a lot of these rules because.

You know, we’re, we’re not dealing in a situation where we have troops on the ground who are being shot [00:31:00] at by people who are then dashing into a, you know, religious monument to like avoid being shot at. And I, I really like that and it gives me hope of ways that you can circumvent. Bureaucratic morass.

Because a lot of me is like, well, we just have to wait for everything to burn to the ground. Right? There’s just, we have to just, it’s gonna crumble, everything’s gonna fall apart, and then we’ll have to start fresh. And here it, there’s a demonstration that actually you can take something that is so large and so huge and so complex and also so regimented as the US military with all of its rules, it’s multiple rule books.

And. Still be this effective and broker in this new age of, of geopolitical strategy and war that we’re seeing with Venezuela, with Iran, with our joint actions, with Israel. Maybe. Maybe there’s hope.

Malcolm Collins: What

Simone Collins: do the

Malcolm Collins: long term, what we’re gonna see [00:32:00] is breaking rules, saves lives, ignoring about all of this because when your opponents know that you play by these rules, they then say, well then now let’s, let’s put our offices in schools and stuff like this.

And the great thing is, is one of the reasons we’ve been able to just completely ignore the rules, and I think that we should more aggressively going forwards, is all of the sources that used to shame this source of behavior. Nobody trusts anymore. No matter what Trump does in a war, we now know that leftist media is gonna say he’s killing school kids.

He’s killing hosp. They don’t, the Jews are doing, oh, they’re blowing up school kids. They’re blowing up. They’ll say that no matter what you do, you could have the cleanest war ever or the dirtiest war ever. The same articles are gonna come out. So, and, and the Iranians could do whatever. You know, you saw the left like.

Giving, literally affiliating them as they were murdering tens of thousands of innocent protestors, right? Like, and that’s just murdering. Like you are a woman in Iran. [00:33:00] You walk around without a hijab, you get sent to an irania prison, you get griped, you get, you know, they didn’t care about that. They didn’t care about women, right?

Like they literally do not care how evil the opponent is. They do not care how good you try to be. So just handle things in the way that is the most efficient. That is my takeaway is, is is the most moral way to do things. And as a government and as a people, we need to get back to doing things that way.

Simone Collins: Well, fortunately that’s apparently more where the rules of engagement have gone. What Michael said in the allin podcast was things have shifted more to, as he put it, this Colin Powell era of use your judgment. And I think in the end, you know. Allowing people to make strategic decisions on the ground, like that is the right call.

People don’t want to hurt civilians. They don’t wanna hurt kids and people in their homes, they don’t wanna, they don’t want to cause collateral damage. And when they do, they’re making a really [00:34:00] tough call. But that, that’s probably to save more people, right? Yeah. So yeah, I just. This blew my mind when I heard about it and when I told you and, and some other people on a family call yesterday and you guys were like, I don’t know if that’s true.

I’m like, okay, well that’s,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Like, I wanna, I wanna look into this. That doesn’t sound true. And then it’s,

Simone Collins: yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it’s true. What?

Simone Collins: Can you believe it? Yeah. Yeah. Wild. I would love to hear in the comments, any experiences, people that we have listened to this podcast to serve or have served in the military.

What you’re seeing on the ground now, what you saw on the ground pa in the past, because I mean, to whatever extent you can say something because again, it’s a lot of this just, it can’t be published. We don’t know what people are being briefed on. As they’re serving in the military, I’m really curious.

I wanna know what the experience is like. ‘cause my understanding is like, you know, as you’re entering a theater of war, you know, you’re going in, [00:35:00] you’re getting your orientation, whatever you’re settling into your place and they’re like, okay, by the way, these are all the roles. You can’t do this, this, and this.

I’m just really curious to see how it, it worked in practice because it’s just so wild to me. So, thanks to everyone who always does share really interesting insights in the comments. You guys are amazing. And Malcolm, I love you a lot.

Malcolm Collins: I love you a lot, Simone. You are amazing and a great wife.

Simone Collins: Thanks for.

Malcolm Collins: Why does that make you smile? You just

Simone Collins: are I, I can’t smile. I,

Malcolm Collins: no, I don’t want you to smile. I don’t know why I didn’t mean to make you smile. I feel bad about making you smile

Simone Collins: this giant No, it’s, it’s turn My bruise is turning like yellow and gross. But yeah, you make me smile even though it hurts. I love

Malcolm Collins: you, Simone.

I appreciate that you push through for our fans to give them great content even when you’re in enormous pain. And I know that they appreciate it too. There’s a lot of people who take a lot of time to watch. I mean, we put, we put [00:36:00] time into putting these together and, and trying to give you guys something that is you know, exciting for you and, and, and intellectually stimulating.

And you know, Simone, to, to, to get these out every day, even when you’re recovering. I mean, we had a whole week where we had to do prerecorded episodes when a lot was happening and Iran and stuff like that.

Simone Collins: I’m

Malcolm Collins: sorry. And I felt bad about it, but, but. Because we, you know, we wanna give you guys consistent quality.

I don’t, I don’t want you guys coming to one of these videos and just having one of us, or just having, you know, and Simone is willing to put herself through so much to, to it gives that to you guys, and it means the world to me that I married somebody, this honorable and this diligent.

Simone Collins: Aw, thanks Malcolm.

I love you a lot and I, I loved this podcast and I love the really smart people who, we’re part of the community too, so it’s all worth it, and pain is just pain. So, all right, I will go get dinner started, and I love you lots.

Malcolm Collins: Bye bye.

Simone Collins: So today [00:37:00] randomly, Octavian mentioned karaoke and I was like, wait, how does he know about like karaoke parties? We’ve never done karaoke in our house before. And I asked him, do you know what karaoke means? And he’s like, yeah, it’s when you’re sick and you miss something

Malcolm Collins: when you’re sick and you miss something.

Simone Collins: Like, he seemed to think that, that, that karaoke is, is the word for absence. But okay. Anyway,

Malcolm Collins: you found out how to use a feature on the Alexa that we,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Don’t know how to use

Simone Collins: it’s Well, no, no, no. I know how to use it. It’s the drop-in feature. So we have a house full of smart speakers, both Google and Alexa.

Great. Now anyone can just hack it, but whatever. We know everyone’s always listening. Where you can use it as an intercom. But you can also use a drop in feature where you can just listen in to any of the rooms that has this enabled. And we use it all the time, like after our kids go to bed. [00:38:00] Like just the same night last night Octavian was very unhappy about something and I heard him crying in the room and like normal parents have to get out of bed and walk down to like their kid’s room and talk to their kid, whereas I just pick up my phone.

And I drop into the room and I’m like, Hey, Octavian, what’s up? And we have a talk and then he’s fine and I don’t have to get out of bed, and he’s fine. And we just talk through the speaker and then he goes off and does his thing. But unfortunately, he discovered the drop-in feature through audio commands, which I didn’t know was possible.

And so like it’s the middle of the night. And I like hear this voice through my dreams. This like little child voice talking about stickers and batteries for his Chinook helicopter. And I’m like, what, what, what? Oh, like what is going on? And I’m just like, go to sleep, Octavian. And he’s like, okay, mom, drop out.

And I’m like, oh God. He’s dropped in on the Alexa device. I can’t swear. Where

Malcolm Collins: did he learn those voice commands?

Simone Collins: I don’t know. I don’t know. [00:39:00] It could be that maybe when I call in and drop in on his device, in his room it says something like dropping in and then my voice comes in. I don’t know. I’ll have to figure that out.

But no, he uses it all the time. He is unlocked a new skill, though he doesn’t understand what karaoke is. I mean, I explained it to him, but he’s probably still gonna think it’s what absence is. So

Malcolm Collins: he is obsessed with conquering other countries. It is, talks about it all the time.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: When he sees land, when he sees maps

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Yeah. He is the, he’s the kid. We should have named Manifest Destiny that we can’t because it’s both. Too far right. And too hippie.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. We really wanted a can they manifest destiny, by the way, can I tonight is the dumpling lasagna ready?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. And I’m gonna do that with steamed edamame with sea salt.

Malcolm Collins: Actually, we do need to get through the roast beef.

Simone Collins: Oh. I’ll make [00:40:00] you another sandwich.

Malcolm Collins: What I would do is not a full sandwich, but roast beast. Roast beef and white bread I think would actually go really well with the dumpling.

Simone Collins: Yeah. ‘cause there’s only one Raman. So Okay. Just roast beef on white bread or do you want that with mustard and

Malcolm Collins: I mean, maybe may some mustard to mayo, but let’s try that.

Simone Collins: Just heavily layered, just the rest of it.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know the rest of it. I mean, I was thinking of it as like a light, almost, sort of like dipper sandwich basically. Like I think the flavors would actually go really well.

Simone Collins: You can’t dip something in Zale.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no. You take a bite of one, then you take a bite of the other.

Simone Collins: You’re a strange man. You still want the edamame.

Malcolm Collins: No.

Simone Collins: Why did you buy it? You buy it, you get all these ideas in your head, and then we have like a freezer full of stuff. I

Malcolm Collins: might want AMI later. It’s just AMI isn’t gonna expire and the sandwich meat is.

Simone Collins: Yeah, no, that’s wise. Okay, that’s the [00:41:00] plan then. Let me gird my loins here.

Malcolm Collins: It’s funny, somebody was like in the comment because we had a, well, how, I just love seeing them together. A couple so clearly made for each other, and of course salty people on Reddit saw this and were like, they, they. That wife is clearly a year away from divorce, right? Like he treats her like a slave.

It’s like you about to leave me, Simone. Is that, that where we are right now?

Simone Collins: Don’t make me laugh. It will hurt. I’m already gonna be spitting up blood after doing this podcast, please.

Do you want me to do one?

Malcolm Collins: I have another one

Simone Collins: prepped. No, I’m, I’m good. I’m good enough. It is just never going to, like, I just had to push through this, so, you ready? Okay. Oh God, no. Let me do one, let me do one. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We’re doing it. Okay. Ready? Okay. All right.

Speaker 12: [00:42:00] Mama. Mommy. Mama. Mommy.

Who’s down there, Titan. She’s up to something. Dad.

Speaker 13: What’s up Andy? I,

yeah. What do you think guys? Can it go away?

Speaker 12: No. I, Aw girl. I’m, do you want the [00:43:00] sand? I’m

Speaker 13: Oh, sweet darling. I’m supposed to. Professor, what should we do?

Girl, can you do it? Octavian? Oh, you can do it. Oh, you can do it.

Speaker 12: Go under Indy. Okay. Okay. Okay. Indy, do you want some milk? Go? You wanna slide? Okay. Go. Go under it. Go under it. Go [00:44:00] under it. See the, okay. Ready. You don’t wanna slide,

Speaker 13: you wanna sit right there? Okay. That’s fine. You can do that. That’s fine. No.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe