Outro

Michael Grinich is a design-obsessed engineer who once spent days in a recording studio with an electronic musician crafting the perfect email notification sound. He now runs WorkOS, the $50M (accelerating) ARR enterprise infrastructure business powering nearly every major AI company you can think of, OpenAI, xAI, Anthropic, Sierra, Cursor. Michael has scaled the seven-year-old company to 100 people with no CRO, no VP of sales, and just three sales reps. In an industry where most CEOs default to hiring more executives, Michael runs WorkOS with senior ICs and a weekly operating cycle. In this episode, he unpacks the philosophy behind it all.

We also discuss:

• Why a great startup idea has to look bad first

• Why Michael subscribes to "Minimum awesome product" over MVP

• Micro-leadership over micromanagement

• How to "AI pill" your team

• Why senior engineers are the most impactful with AI

• The reverse Peter principle

Referenced:

• Billie Jean King

• Black Swan Farming

• Brian Chesky

• Cursor

• Founder Mode

• Ivan Zhao

• Model Context Protocol (MCP)

• Nat Friedman

• Paul Graham

• Peter Principle

• Seeing Like a State

• Twilio

Where to find Michael Grinich:

• WorkOS

• X

• LinkedIn

Where to find Nakul Mandan:

• Audacious Ventures

• X

• LinkedIn

Where to find Audacious:

• Website

• LinkedIn

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction

01:33 From design-obsessed founder to enterprise infrastructure

04:20 Michael’s year off and what made the WorkOS bet obvious

06:54 Why a great startup idea has to look bad first

09:46 Minimum awesome product beats MVP

11:09 The org with no CRO, no VP of sales, and one PM

13:29 Hiring for curiosity, not credentials

16:25 The "AI pilled" interview red flag

18:25 A week is 2% of the year

26:00 How WorkOS approaches brand

33:00 The future shape of engineering orgs

43:20 Why senior engineers benefit most from AI

44:45 Micro-leadership over micromanagement

49:10 Tough times in the early days

59:04 The reverse Peter principle

1:04:38 Quickfire: red flags, hires too early, and biggest fears

1:10:30 Michael's advice to their 25-year-old self

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