Today we’re asking: what do you do when someone you love tells you they’re leaving the Church? What do you say? How do you stay grounded and connected when the stakes feel high or you’re caught off guard?

We sat down with two longtime friends of the podcast—authors and researchers Joseph Grenny and Jeff Strong—to explore these high-stakes moments when someone is ready to talk about their shifting faith.

Drawing on research from over 500 real-life conversations about faith transitions, Joseph and Jeff uncover something both surprising and sobering: statistically, it’s devout parents and church leaders who are most likely to miss the mark in these conversations.

They suggest this isn’t about a lack of love or sincerity—but consequences of a very natural response to fear. Jeff and Joseph call it a TUI—talking under the influence. When the amygdala takes over, stress floods the system, and the thinking brain goes offline. What looks like a communication problem is actually a chemical one, and even the most well-intentioned among us can say things that damage relationships for years.

But it doesn’t have to be that way. Today, Joseph and Jeff show us how to recognize when we’re under the influence, how to pause before we cause harm, and how to come back grounded and clear—so that we can choose connection over control, curiosity over fear.

With General Conference this weekend and Easter just days away—seasons that bring families together and open the door naturally, to these conversations—we hope this episode reminds you that you’re not alone, and that these hard moments, can become the fertile ground for relationships that are deeper, more honest, and more connected than they were before.

You can also read and share an essay called "Messy Conversations: When Loved Ones Leave the Faith" by Joseph Grenny at faithmatters.org.

Listen to Sanctuary: Discovering the Temple on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Substack, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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