Why MLS falls short for large groups

Evgeny is the founder of SimpleX Chat, a private and secure comms protocol that has a radically different approach to the concept of user identity.  We discuss how SimpleX's unique transport network assigns addresses to connections instead of endpoints, why MLS is flawed, the upcoming scalable channels feature to compete with Telegram, and how the network plans to sustain itself through a model where large channels fund infrastructure. No phone numbers.  Private and secure. Open and scalable.

Personal blog: https://www.poberezkin.com
Official website: https://simplex.chat
SimpleX on Nostr: https://primal.net/simplex
SimpleX on X: https://x.com/SimpleXChat

EPISODE: 196
BLOCK: 941454
PRICE: 1432 sats per dollar

(00:02:56) Introducing SimpleX and why Signals model falls short

(00:04:48) What is SimpleX? Sovereignty and trustless design principles

(00:09:21) Privacy as prerequisite for speech and society

(00:13:04) From messenger to scalable channels and Telegram comparisons

(00:17:27) Content privacy vs participation privacy in large groups

(00:23:30) Removing identity

(00:24:32) Transport layer innovation: addressing connections, not endpoints

(00:29:09) SimpleX Chat as first app and platform on the network

(00:30:25) Agents, AI, and commerce inside messaging

(00:32:43) Routers: resource needs and the trust model

(00:36:14) Operator diversity and Tor comparisons

(00:40:15) Packet level anonymity vs persistent circuits

(00:41:39) Discovery and first contact: addresses, reply paths, UX

(00:43:09) Groups at scale, MLS critique, and Signals approach

(00:48:00) SimpleX groups today and upcoming channel relays

(00:52:30) Verifiability, signed actions, and deniability tradeoffs

(01:01:02) Authenticity for public speech in a deepfake era

(01:02:01) Incentivizing infrastructure: beyond hobby servers

(01:08:10) Why premium app models fail; web monetization analogy

(01:11:00) Channels as websites: who pays and why

(01:14:34) For profit vs nonprofit: incentives, governance, and scale

(01:21:16) Consortium governance and resisting capture

(01:27:41) Lessons from the web: speed, innovation, and standards

(01:33:06) Privacy tech adoption realities and movement unity

(01:34:36) Monetization mechanics: registries, naming, and smart contracts

(01:39:54) Programmatic revenue sharing and prepaid credits

(01:52:18) Choosing chains and assets: centralization vs volatility

(01:55:09) Prototype first, prove market fit, then harden design

(01:59:00) Motivation: restoring private communication at scale

(02:00:12) Next steps: consortium, crowdfunding, and closing