Both-and thinking: unexpected benefits of detours

We all know that moment where something falls apart.

A project slips. A conversation goes sideways. The promotion doesn’t happen.

We call it “failure,” but it’s often not the mistake itself that stops us.

It’s the fear, the funk, and the uncertainty that follow. And those emotions can hold us back far more than the faceplant ever did.

In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Melisa Buie and Keeley Hurley—seasoned leaders in engineering, quality, and continuous improvement and the co-authors of Faceplant: FREE Yourself from Failure’s Funk.

Together, we explore what really happens beneath the surface when we stumble—and what it takes to get back up with clarity, confidence, and intention. 

Just like Daruma dolls represent the Japanese proverb “Fall down seven times, get up eight,” always righting themselves when knocked over, our path to success comes from acknowledging the stumbles, setbacks, and faceplants that are inherent along the way.

What matters is that we don’t get stuck—we get up and learn our way forward.

YOU’LL LEARN:

• What’s at risk when leaders fear failure, and how organizations unintentionally teach people to avoid mistakes
• The FREE model (Focus, Reflect, Explore, Engage) as a practical way to get back up, learn forward, and regain clarity after a setback
• Emotional hijacks to watch for—including the four instinctive patterns in the Conspirator Matrix: machine, magician, statue, and satellite
• Why embracing a growth mindset frees you to experiment, learn, and release perfection when things don’t go as planned
• Continuous improvement practices like reflection (post-mortems) and anticipation (pre-mortems) that strengthen learning before and after challenges occur

If a setback has ever left you uncertain about your next step in building a people-centered culture, this conversation offers a compassionate, practical path to learn your way forward when you fall down.

ABOUT MY GUESTS:

Dr. Melisa Buie is a laser physicist–turned–problem solver with a PhD in Nuclear Engineering/Plasma Physics and decades of leadership in manufacturing at Coherent, Lam Research, Applied Materials, and Advanced Energy. She’s published 40+ papers, holds 6 patents, and is a Six Sigma Black Belt. Melisa is the co-author of Faceplant: FREE Yourself from Failure’s Funk, where she turns hard-won lessons into practical wisdom for navigating setbacks.

Keeley Hurley is a continuous improvement leader with 20+ years in engineering, manufacturing, and quality, and a Certified Manager of Quality/Organizational Excellence. Known for her humility and humor, she brings real-world experience from the many “faceplants” that shaped her problem-solving approach. She is the co-author of Faceplant: FREE Yourself from Failure’s Funk, blending lessons from her own missteps into tools for resilience and growth.

IMPORTANT LINKS:

• Full episode show notes with links to other podcast episodes and resources: ChainOfLearning.com/60 
• Check out my website for resources and ways to work with me KBJAnderson.com
• Connect with Melisa Buie: linkedin.com/in/melisabuie
• Connect with Keeley Hurley: linkedin.com/in/keeleyhurley
• Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson
• Check out Melissa and Keeley’s book, Faceplant: FREE Yourself from Failure’s Funk

TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:

01:46 What inspired the book, “Faceplant”
02:56 The emotion behind failure that keeps us stuck
05:53 Getting over the hump of the funk knowing others experience failure
07:03 The meaning of the equation, anxiety = care x uncertainty where our anxiety is amplified
08:25 Why the care factor amplifies when when others are involved
10:01 The pre-mortem exercise to reduce anxiety by anticipating what could go wrong
12:01 How faceplanting is similar to daruma dolls in getting up after we fall
12:44  The aspects of the FREE model in freeing yourself from failure

14:25 Breaking down the acronym FREE: Focus, Reflect, Explore, Engage
17:01 The meaning of the Japanese word, hansei, that means deep self-reflection in improving how we react
17:53 The four quadrant system and determining which quadrant triggers our fight or flight response
20:25 How the four quadrants were determined
21:51 An example of how fear held Keeley back in an emotional hijack in the laser industry
22:47 Melisa’s personal experience in having a fixed mindset when faced with failure
23:56 How Melisa moved from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset and taking chances
26:13 Ways to approach failure in an organizational level
28:40 Importance of clarifying expectations instead of adding pressure on ourselves
30:02 The meaning behind the phrase, “By learning the wrong lesson, you can get stuck with a Life Sentence”
31:24 The both/and thinking that both Melisa and Keeley had to face in embracing failure
36:55 How to apply the concept of hansei in reflecting on a current change initiative and how to learn from failure
39:06 Two ways to reflect on this episode to get past face plants and building small intentional steps to build a learning culture