644. Reclaiming Joy from Screens and Ultra-Processed Foods with Michaeleen Doucleff
unSILOed with Greg LaBlanc
How dopamine drives wanting versus pleasure
Michaeleen contrasts wanting (dopamine) with hedonic hotspots and explains designers exploit wanting without satisfaction.
What if reducing screen time or eating less processed food didn’t feel like deprivation, but rather it was the key to unlocking more joy and excitement in our lives?
Michaeleen Doucleff, PhD, is a correspondent for NPR’s Science Desk, where she reports on mental health, nutrition, psychology and neuroscience. She’s also the author of Hunt, Gather, Parent: What Ancient Cultures Can Teach Us About the Lost Art of Raising Happy, Helpful Little Humans and her latest, Dopamine Kids: A Science-Based Plan to Rewire Your Child's Brain and Take Back Your Family in the Age of Screens and Ultraprocessed Foods.
Greg and Michaeleen discuss how many products are engineered to create bottomless, non-closure experiences that leave users feeling drained. They also unpack how the dopamine system in our brains really works, and go over practical tips to reduce reliance on screens and ultraprocessed foods that lead to happier, more fulfilling lives.
*unSILOed Podcast is produced by University FM.*
Episode Quotes:
Why more desire doesn’t mean more satisfaction
09:09: Here's the thing: pleasure. And this is how the system is supposed to work, right? Dopamine triggers desire, wanting, motivation, willingness to work. A lot of scientists will tell you its willingness to work, right? How hard an animal will work for something. And this makes us go, want, desire, want more, want more, want more. But when you actually trigger the pleasure center, the hedonic hotspots, as they're called, you stop wanting, you feel satisfied, you feel you're done.
What if parenting isn’t about taking things away?
04:14: Dopamine Kids is really about creating a culture where you're not just taking things from kids or taking things from your family, but you're actually inviting kids to discover better things in their lives.
Why kids actually enjoy effort
19:17: What I think parents don't understand is it's pleasurable to work. Kids find it pleasurable to work, and they want to. And I'm not talking about doing things that they don't like and they hate, right? Or they feel really like they have to. But working on something that you are excited about and that you feel some sort of innate drive to do—this is very pleasurable for people, including children. And actually, that's the way the system is. The dopamine system is evolved to work, right? It triggers wanting, desire for something, and then working to get it. And then the pleasure comes after working and the satisfaction.
Show Links:
Recommended Resources:
- Hunt, Gather, Parent feat. Michaeleen Doucleff | unSILOed
- Natasha Dow Schüll
- B. J. Fogg
- What You Have in Common With a Pigeon and Why It’s Causing Problems for You by Michaeleen Doucleff | New York Times
- https://michaeleendoucleff.com/dopamine-kids-resources/
Guest Profile:
Guest Work:
- Dopamine Kids: A Science-Based Plan to Rewire Your Child's Brain and Take Back Your Family in the Age of Screens and Ultraprocessed Foods
- Hunt, Gather, Parent: What Ancient Cultures Can Teach Us About the Lost Art of Raising Happy, Helpful Little Humans
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