Creating hideouts and play spaces for change

"Organisations love innovation, but they hate their innovators."

Jeff and Staney DeGraff return to The Innovation Show to close out Aidan McCullen's DeGraff trilogy with their book The Art of Change. Their argument is direct: change rarely fails because of bad strategy or weak execution. It fails because leaders bring the wrong mindset — treating change like a linear project when change is actually a paradox to be held.

In this conversation, Jeff and Staney reveal:

• Why the man who saved Operation Warp Speed got passed over for promotion — and what his story tells every innovator about the cost of being right
• The Jonas Salk warning every change-maker should hear: they won't notice, then they'll say you're doing it wrong, then they'll call you unprofessional, then they'll take credit for your work
• Why apathy and alignment are the deadliest signs in any organisation
• The seven core paradoxes of change — and the four-step paradox mindset cycle that breaks the deadlock
• Why facts don't change minds (the Harriet Beecher Stowe story Lincoln told to prove it)
• How Sears actually invented the digital economy and how mindset cost them the future
• Why "deviance first, alignment later" is the funnel every leader gets backwards
• The CIO joke that isn't funny: Career Is Over as soon as you take the job
• Why the first pancake is never a good pancake — and what FAIL really stands for

Chapters: 00:00 Innovation in the AI era 01:03 Sponsor and book intro 01:40 Why change fails 02:36 Trilogy origins 06:12 Paradox and mindset 07:58 Why organisations punish their innovators 10:28 Luis, Rapid X, and Operation Warp Speed 16:52 Meaning over happiness 18:06 Time, not targets 19:45 The paradox mindset cycle 24:34 Marriage and money paradox 28:15 Conflict fuels change 32:27 Missed futures examples 36:44 Practice beats theatre 38:04 Builders versus bureaucrats 41:05 Skin in the game 42:35 Blocked by superiors 43:45 Leaders spot talent 44:49 Disruptors and failure 48:05 Boundaries create freedom 51:43 Innovation needs hideouts 53:59 Stories build culture 59:45 The seven paradoxes explained 01:07:38 Deviance, then alignment 01:13:10 The paradox mindset cycle 01:18:26 Final takeaways and wrap

About Jeff and Staney DeGraff Jeff DeGraff is the "Dean of Innovation" — Clinical Professor of Management at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, founder of the Innovatrium, and author of multiple bestselling books on creative leadership. Staney DeGraff is co-founder of the Innovatrium and Jeff's longtime collaborator. Together they've worked with half the Fortune 500 on what it actually takes to make change stick.

📘 The Art of Change — https://amzn.to/48mhX54

🌐 https://jeffdegraff.com

About The Innovation Show

The Innovation Show with Aidan McCullen is the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Each week, Aidan sits down with world-class authors, scientists, and practitioners to call out the "Emperor is naked" moments and explore disruption, transformation, leadership, and the ideas shaping tomorrow.

Connect 🌐 https://theinnovationshow.io

📨 Substack (and a chance to win a copy of The Creative Mindset): https://thethursdaythought.substack.com

🎧 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669

🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450

🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

Sponsor

This series is brought to you by Kyndryl. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.

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