Between Pride and Shame: Beverly Gage Gets in her Subaru & drives Across 250 Years of American History
Keen On America
Outro
Andrew and Beverly close the interview, announce Beverly's book, and preview her future Reagan biography plans.
“You can face your history and still love your country. This is my attempt at doing that.” — Beverly Gage
When the Yale Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Beverly Gage finished her almost nine-hundred-page biography of J. Edgar Hoover, she needed a little break before starting her next book on Ronald Reagan. So she got in her old Subaru and spent six months on the road driving across America to prepare for the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. The result of these thirteen separate road trips is This Land Is Your Land: A Road Trip Through US History. Gage’s Subaru broke down constantly. So, from time to time, did her health. But the American history she uncovered is anything but broken down.
Historians, Gage argues, don’t think enough about geography. Visiting the homes of the first four US Presidents from Virginia, she saw how closely America’s slaveholding elite actually lived. Driving through the small towns on the Erie Canal, she found the corridor where abolitionism, women’s rights, temperance, and reform Christianity were all born. At Disneyland, the final chapter in her road trip, she went to the Abraham Lincoln stage show and imagined Main Street USA as Walt Disney’s parable about US history. The gap between the imagined America and the real one (yes, there is a real one, she insists) is where true history lives.
Gage’s thesis is that there is a third road — too much of a backstreet these days — between American pride and shame in its history. Her book maps that path. You can face up to your history, she argues, and still love your country. In a moment when inane triumphalism and apocalyptic despair dominate America’s sense of itself, Gage’s quiet historical reflection feels like the rarest of national commodities. Ben Franklin wondered in 1787 if the sun was rising or setting on America. Two hundred and fifty years later, Beverly Gage got in her Subaru and went on the road to find out.
Five Takeaways
• Out of the Library and Into the Subaru: Gage won the Pulitzer Prize for her eight-hundred-page biography of J. Edgar Hoover. Her next book is on Ronald Reagan. Between the two, she needed a break. So she got in her unreliable Subaru and drove across America in thirteen trips, covering six months on the road, to prepare for the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. The Subaru broke down constantly. The history she found was worth it.
• Historians Don’t Think Enough About Geography: Visiting the homes of the first four presidents from Virginia, Gage saw how closely the slaveholding elite actually lived — neighbours, not just names in a textbook. Driving the Erie Canal in upstate New York, she found the corridor where abolitionism, women’s rights, temperance, and reform Christianity were all born in a handful of small towns. Frederick Douglass and Susan B. Anthony were neighbours. History on the ground is different from history in books.
• Disneyland Is a Parable About American History: When Walt Disney opened Disneyland in 1955, Main Street USA reached back to his own childhood in the age of William McKinley. Frontierland told the heroic story of the American past. Tomorrowland celebrated Cold War technological optimism. Most visitors don’t think about this. Gage does. She went to the Abraham Lincoln stage show. The gap between the imagined America and the real one is where the history lives.
• The Third Road: Between Pride and Shame: Gage encountered Americans who said: celebrate the country, I want nothing to do with that. She encountered others who said: only say the good stuff. She wanted to live in the tension between them. You can face your history and still love your country. That’s the thesis of the book, and the argument for how to approach 250 years of American history in a moment when both triumphalism and despair are on offer.
• Upstate New York Was Where Americans Reimagined Themselves: Gage’s favourite chapter. In the 1840s and 1850s along the Erie Canal, Frederick Douglass and Susan B. Anthony were actually neighbours. They were writing their own constitutions and rethinking the Declaration of Independence. Douglass gave his famous “What to the slave is the Fourth of July?” speech in Rochester. They were in it together. If you want to find the third road, this is where to start.
About the Guest
Beverly Gage is the John Lewis Gaddis Professor of History and American Studies at Yale. She is the author of G-Man: J. Edgar Hoover and the Making of the American Century, which won the Pulitzer Prize for Biography, and This Land Is Your Land: A Road Trip Through US History. She is currently at work on a biography of Ronald Reagan.
References:
• This Land Is Your Land: A Road Trip Through US History by Beverly Gage.
• G-Man: J. Edgar Hoover and the Making of the American Century by Beverly Gage — the Pulitzer-winning biography.
• Episode 2859: Stop, Don’t Do That — Peter Edelman on Bobby Kennedy and the heart of America. The companion conversation.
About Keen On America
Nobody asks more awkward questions than the Anglo-American writer and filmmaker Andrew Keen. In Keen On America, Andrew brings his pointed Transatlantic wit to making sense of the United States — hosting daily interviews about the history and future of this now venerable Republic. With nearly 2,800 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting.
Chapters:
- (00:31) - Introduction: out of the library, into the Subaru
- (01:57) - Why a road trip? The 250th anniversary approaches
- (04:18) - Growing up in suburban Philadelphia, displaced
- (05:32) - Goldberger becomes Gage: a father’s anglicised name
- (07:46) - This Land Is Your Land: Woody Guthrie as frame
- (08:18) - Historians don’t think enough about geography
- (11:27) - The places most people have never heard of
- (13:42) - Disneyland and the parable of American history
- (15:49) - Lafayette, Tocqueville, and the great travel tradition
- (17:25) - Thirteen trips, six months on the road
- (20:22) - Crisis, catastrophe, and the opportunity for change
- (23:21) - The apocalyptic temptation: from left and right
- (25:13) - Civil rights cities that fell on hard times
- (31:36) - The third road: between pride and shame
- (33:35) - Upstate New York: Douglass, Anthony, and the neighbours who reimagined A...
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