Expanding DORA metrics from four to five

This interview was recorded for GOTO State of the Art in October 2025.
https://gotopia.tech

Read the full transcription of this interview here:
https://gotopia.tech/articles/415

Nathen Harvey - DORA Lead, Product Manager at Google Cloud & Author
Charles Humble - Freelance Techie, Podcaster, Editor, Author & Consultant

RESOURCES
Nathen
https://bsky.app/profile/nathenharvey.bsky.social
https://x.com/nathenharvey
https://github.com/nathenharvey
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathen
https://linktr.ee/nathenharvey
http://nathenharvey.com

Charles
https://bsky.app/profile/charleshumble.bsky.social
https://linkedin.com/in/charleshumble
https://mastodon.social/@charleshumble
https://conissaunce.com

Links
https://dora.dev
https://dora.dev/research/2025/dora-report
https://dora.dev/research/2024/dora-report
https://thenewstack.io/ebooks/kubernetes/kubernetes-at-the-edge-container-orchestration-at-scale

DESCRIPTION
Charles Humble speaks with Nathen Harvey, leader of Google's DORA research team, about the real impact of AI on software development.

Drawing from surveys of nearly 5,000 practitioners, Nathen reveals a surprising finding: increased AI adoption initially correlates with decreased stability and throughput - the very metrics teams have optimized for decades. The conversation explores why this happens, what capabilities organizations need before scaling AI adoption, and how AI acts as an amplifier of existing systems rather than a silver bullet.

Nathen introduces DORA's seven AI capabilities model and discusses critical issues around trust, documentation, skill devaluation, and the future of software delivery in an AI-native world.

RECOMMENDED BOOKS
Emily Freeman & Nathen Harvey • 97 Things Every Cloud Engineer Should Know • https://amzn.to/3UlWBLt
Charles Humble • Professional Skills for Software Engineers • https://www.conissaunce.com/professional-skills-shortcut
Nicole Forsgren, Jez Humble & Gene Kim • Accelerate • https://amzn.to/442Rep0
Kim, Humble, Debois, Willis & Forsgren • The DevOps Handbook • https://amzn.to/47oAf3l
Jez Humble & David Farley • Continuous Delivery • https://amzn.to/452ZRky
Jez Humble, Joanne Molesky & Barry O'Reilly • Lean Enterprise • https://amzn.to/47pcOXD
Adrienne Braganza Tacke • "Looks Good to Me": Constructive Code Reviews • https://amzn.to/3E75XrD
Yevgeniy Brikman • Fundamentals of DevOps and Software Delivery • https://amzn.to/3WMPMFU

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