Applying dissident lessons to America

Chuck Todd argues the Trump administration is in the political equivalent of a hole and can't stop digging, walking through a series of self-inflicted wounds that are damaging America's standing both at home and abroad. He reveals the administration is circulating a "trade for aid" package at the UN that would essentially privatize humanitarian assistance, a pretense to drop all foreign aid since the private sector obviously won't fill the gaps without extracting something in return — and warns that after the USAID cuts, other countries have already scaled back their own contributions, meaning America is effectively exporting heartlessness around the world and looking like assholes in the process. The administration's fight with the Pope perfectly captures this mentality: Mike Johnson is defending Trump's attacks on the pontiff by citing Catholic "just war doctrine," newly-converted JD Vance is lecturing the Pope on his own church's theology, and Chuck notes that elected Republicans know this is disastrous politics but are too afraid to say so publicly. He closes with a reflection on hosting a panel for a new documentary about Hannah Arendt, arguing it's the perfect moment to revisit her work on totalitarianism. He notes Arendt was a Zionist who didn't want Israel to be a nationalist state, and applies that framework to the current moment: the backlash against Israel is really a backlash against Netanyahu, who has tried to manipulate every American president but only found his willing partner in Trump; October 7th galvanized Israeli society but hasn't made Bibi more popular at home; Israel now has only one major ally left in America, and Bibi is actively risking even that.

Then, Gal Beckerman — author of the new book How to Be a Dissident — joins the Chuck Toddcast for a timely conversation about what it actually takes to resist authoritarianism, written explicitly for an American audience that he argues is now experiencing something abnormal and authoritarian for the first time. Beckerman, drawing on his years of reporting on historical resistance movements, identifies the qualities that successful dissidents across cultures and eras tend to share: the ability to step away from human conformity, a deep sense of pessimism that paradoxically motivates action, and a willingness to be reckless in ways that expose the cruelty of the system they're fighting — whether that's putting children in harm's way during the Birmingham civil rights protests, setting oneself on fire to prove a point, or Alexei Navalny choosing to return to Russia knowing he would likely lose his life. He explains why killing dissidents often backfires by making them immortal, why humor and satire are uniquely powerful tools that authorities have always tried to suppress (medieval rulers banned satire for a reason), and the simple question every dissident eventually faces: "Can I live with myself?"

The conversation turns to what Beckerman sees happening in America right now. He praises the No Kings protests for ramping up demonstrations strategically and points to Minneapolis during ICE's occupation as a moment where ordinary Americans demonstrated genuine dissident behavior. Beckerman makes the provocative argument that the most effective dissidents tend to come from within the system rather than from outside it. He compares Hungary's recent overthrow of Orbán, which was made possible by years of civic organizing in rural areas building the sense of community needed to believe change was possible, with America's institutional capitulation under Trump. He argues Americans weren't prepared to act because they'd never faced this situation before, but that ICE's actions in Minneapolis genuinely woke many people up, They close with cautious optimism: Trump has shaken Americans out of complacency, voter turnout is at its highest in a century, the country has become more sophisticated about protest, and that most dissidents don't realize they've succeeded in the moment they're acting.

Finally, he answers listeners’ questions in the “Ask Chuck” segment.

Protect your family with life insurance from Ethos. Get up to $3 million in coverage in as little as 10 minutes at https://ethos.com/chuck. Application times may vary. Rates may vary.

 Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to https://Quince.com/chuck for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. 

Link in bio or go to https://getsoul.com & enter code TODDCAST for 30% off your first order.

Timeline:

(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)

00:00 Chuck Todd’s introduction

06:00 The Trump administration can’t help but “stop digging”

06:45 Outside of his base, Trump isn’t able to persuade others

07:30 Administration circulating a “trade for aid” package at the UN

09:00 Administration wants the world to privatize humanitarian aid

10:00 After USAID cuts, other countries have scaled back their aid

10:45 State Dept official says it’s a pretense to drop all aid & privatize it

11:45 Private sector won’t fill in aid gaps without getting something in return

13:15 Trump is making America look like assholes to the rest of the world

14:00 We’re exporting heartlessness around the world

15:00 This mentality is perfectly captured in administration’s fight with the pope

16:15 Mike Johnson defends Trump’s attack on Pope, citing “just war doctrine”

17:30 The pope has been saying what a pope should say

18:45 Catholic church has a specific theology on “just war”

20:00 JD Vance is newly converted and wants to lecture the pope & church

21:15 Elected Republicans know this is bad politics but are afraid to go public

22:30 Trump’s threats to fire Jay Powell make it harder to confirm his successor

25:00 Maybe a strong independent mind like Jay Powell should run for president

26:45 Prior presidents worked to help their party in 2nd term, Trump doesn’t care

27:45 Trump may be president, but he’s not a true “party leader”

28:15 Chuck hosted panel for new documentary about Hannah Arendt

29:00 Great time to take a deep dive into Arendt’s work on totalitarianism

29:45 We aren’t living in a totalitarian state, but you can see how it can happen

31:30 Arrendt was a Zionist, but didn’t want Israel to be a nationalist state

33:00 Backlash to Israel is mostly backlash against Bibi.

34:00 Bibi has tried to manipulate presidents, only Trump didn’t push back

35:30 October 7th galvanized Israelis, but Bibi isn’t more popular

37:30 Israel now only has one ally in America, Bibi risking that alliance too

38:30 The only way Israel fixes this is with a new government

39:15 Support for Israel is degraded on the American left, the right could follow

43:30 Gal Beckerman joins the Chuck ToddCast
45:15 The book is intended for an American audience
45:45 Americans are experiencing something abnormal & authoritarian
46:30 The conditions for a “normal life” are being impeded on in America
47:00 We saw true dissidents in Minneapolis during ICE occupation
48:30 Most people are hardwired to conform, Minneapolis didn’t
49:00 Dissidents say “no” when their conscience is being violated
50:00 The most simple question for dissidents is “Can I live with myself?”
52:00 What made Soviet dissidents successful vs. modern Russians?
53:30 Soviet Jews were oppressed, but also couldn’t leave
54:15 Soviet Jews broadcast to the world that they were basically prisoners
56:00 Orban’s fall in Hungary had been percolating for years
57:00 Civic organizations in rural Hungary had been organizing
58:00 The sense of community helped people think Orban could be defeated
59:00 No Kings protests have been smart about ramping up demonstrations
59:30 People can join No Kings for their preferred cause & find community
1:01:00 Are the most effective dissidents the people who came from the system?
1:01:45 Navalny in Russia was a creature of the establishment
1:02:45 Liz Cheney didn’t work as a dissident since she wasn’t from Trump wing
1:04:15 The qualities found in dissidents transcend cultures and eras
1:05:30 Dissidents have to be able to step away from human conformity
1:06:15 Pessimism is a common quality in dissidents
1:07:45 If you think things will get better, it doesn’t motivate you to act
1:09:00 The difference between fatalism and pessimism
1:10:45 Humor and satire are a great way to speak to broader audiences
1:12:00 The absurdity in satire cuts through
1:13:30 Satire was pulled down by authorities during the middle ages
1:14:00 Why is recklessness the mark of a successful dissident?
1:15:00 Putting children in harms way in Birmingham showed cruelty of segregation
1:16:15 People set themselves on fire to prove a point
1:17:30 Navalny risked and ultimately lost his life by going back to Russia
1:19:00 Killing dissidents can make them immortal, make them more powerful
1:21:15 It’s important to understand what qualities make for a powerful dissident
1:22:15 We’ve seen institutions and people capitulate in America
1:23:00 Disney settling with Trump put a permanent stain on corporate owned media
1:25:30 Americans weren’t prepared to act because they’ve never faced this situation
1:26:15 ICE going to Minneapolis really woke up many Americans
1:26:45 Being a citizen does demand hard choices sometimes
1:29:45 Israeli society is organized around the idea that citizenship is active work
1:30:30 The upside to the Trump era, is the highest voter turnout in a century
1:32:00 Trump has shaken many Americans out of their sense of complacency
1:33:00 America has become more sophisticated about protesting
1:34:45 America wants change badly, they keep voting for it
1:35:30 Change takes time and people are increasingly impatient
1:37:30 What lesson do you hope people most learn from your book?
1:40:15 Moral choices are a burden, but are also creative acts
1:41:45 Most dissidents don’t know they are successful in the moment

1:43:45 Thoughts on the NBA play-in

1:46:30 Ask Chuck

1:46:45 Would Whitmer/Slotkin be as strong as Warnock/Ossoff as a ticket?

1:49:30 Why didn’t Trump take credit/victory lap over the Artemis mission?

1:53:30 Why are preemptive pardons allowed?

1:55:30 Thoughts on latest polling showing Thomas Massie doing well?

1:58:45 Thoughts on increased calls for expulsion of members of congress?

2:00:30 If Iran offers Obama’s deal, could that further isolate Trump from the world?

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.