Seeing Like a State explained

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William Hurst is all too familiar with the disasters that have resulted from tops-down governance. Through years of fieldwork in China and Indonesia, William has seen what happens when decision-makers are cut off from life on the ground. In this revisited episode, Dart and William explore how companies experience similar problems when they try and optimize complex systems for narrow outcomes.

William Hurst is a political scientist who studies power, institutions, and labor. His work focuses on China and Indonesia, with lessons that extend far beyond politics.

In this episode, Dart and William discuss:
- Why rules fail people doing real work
- Seeing like a state—and like a company
- What James C. Scott gets right about power
- How simplification distorts complex systems
- When efficiency destroys what it measures
- Why coercion is built into governance
- How good intentions caused mass starvation
- What fake compliance looks like at work
- Why local knowledge keeps getting ignored
- What makes work feel meaningful
- And other topics…

William Hurst is the Chong Hua Professor of Chinese Development at the University of Cambridge. He is a political scientist whose research focuses on labor politics, political economy, and the politics of law and institutions in China and Indonesia. Prior to Cambridge, he served as a professor at Northwestern University and held academic positions at Oxford, the University of Texas, and the University of Toronto. He is the author of Ruling Before the Law: The Politics of Legal Regimes in China and Indonesia and The Chinese Worker After Socialism.

Resources Mentioned:
Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed, by James C. Scott: https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Like-State-Schemes-Condition/dp/0300078153
Ruling Before the Law: The Politics of Legal Regimes in China and Indonesia, by William Hurst: ​​https://www.amazon.com/Ruling-before-Law-Indonesia-Cambridge/dp/1108427200
The Chinese Worker After Socialism, by William Hurst: https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Worker-after-Socialism/dp/0521898870

Connect with William:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-hurst-05597723/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.