Should PMs Code and Vice Versa?

With AI generating code faster than ever, coding alone is no longer enough. The engineers who will stand out aren’t the ones who write the most code, but the ones who know what to build and why.

In this episode, Drew Hoskins, author of “The Product-Minded Engineer”, shares how engineers can develop the product thinking skills that will define their careers in the AI era. Drew draws on his experience as a senior staff engineer at Microsoft, Meta, and Stripe to explain why the best engineers care as much about the what and why as the how. He introduces the Double Diamond Framework (Discover, Define, Develop, Deliver) and calls out why most engineers make the mistake of jumping straight to the Develop phase. He also explains the concept of the “great re-indexing”: the mental shift required to switch between thinking like an engineer and thinking like a user. As AI takes over more of the routine coding work, Drew argues that product skills, people skills, and ownership skills are what will separate good engineers from truly impactful ones.

Key topics discussed:

• What makes an engineer “product-minded”
• Why engineers skip Discovery and what it costs them
• The Double Diamond: a framework for building the right thing
• How to think in user scenarios, not just system diagrams
• The “great re-indexing” between engineer and user thinking
• Why discoverability can 10x your feature’s impact for little cost
• How AI is making product skills more valuable, not less
• What junior engineers should focus on to stay relevant

Timestamps:

• (00:00) Trailer & Intro
• (02:35) What Is a Product-Minded Engineer?
• (05:37) What Did Drew Learn Working at Microsoft, Meta, and Stripe?
• (14:13) What Are the Biggest Challenges When Switching from Engineering to Product Management?
• (16:33) What Skill Gaps Hold Engineers Back from Product Thinking?
• (20:56) How Do You Bridge the Communication Gap Between Engineers and PMs?
• (26:07) What Are The Four Pillars (Double Diamond Framework)?
• (29:43) Why Should Engineers Care About the Deliver Phase?
• (32:40) How Should Engineers Apply the Double Diamond Framework Day-to-Day?
• (36:15) How Is AI Reshaping the Role of Product Engineers?
• (40:06) Should Product Managers Learn to Code in the AI Era?
• (43:56) What Is the Right PM-to-Engineer Ratio in the AI Era?
• (45:48) How Should Engineering Leaders Respond to AI Productivity Pressure?
• (51:04) What Advice Would You Give Junior Engineers Entering the Industry Today?
• (55:17) What Other Topics Does the Product-Minded Engineer Book Cover?
• (57:03) 3 Tech Lead Wisdom

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Drew Hoskins’s Bio
Drew Hoskins blends product, engineering, and storytelling in his work and writing. He is the author of The Product-Minded Engineer. As an engineer, Drew has helped design and build a wide range of innovative products and platforms for Microsoft, Meta, and Stripe.

Throughout his career, he has carried a passion for empowering developers. He’s founded and led several teams to major successes with developer platforms that have withstood the test of time. He’s currently a Staff Product Manager at Temporal Technologies, bringing durable execution to the masses.

He is an expert bridge player, having won a North American Championship in 2025, and lives in the beautiful and nerdy San Francisco Bay Area.

Follow Drew:

• LinkedIn – linkedin.com/in/drewhoskins2
• Newsletter – drewhoskins.substack.com
•  Product-Minded Engineer - https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/the-product-minded-engineer/9781098173722/
• One-Page Bio – drewhoskins.carrd.co

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