Intro

Away from the war in Iran, the Pentagon is engaged in another battle, with Anthropic and its AI chatbot Claude. After awarding the company a contract potentially worth $200 million last year to integrate their artificial intelligence into the Department of Defence’s classified systems, that relationship has ended with a lawsuit and a threat which puts the future of Anthropic in jeopardy.

Anthropic says it cannot acquiesce to the government’s demand that it breaches its own ‘red lines’ in how its technology is used. The company insists it cannot be used for mass surveillance of US citizens nor in lethal weapons that are operated without human oversight. It has filed lawsuits against the Pentagon.

Justin and Marianna speak to Dean Ball, Trump’s former AI adviser who helped devise much of the Trump administration’s AI policy, about Anthropic’s position and why he thinks the Pentagon have gone too far. They also discuss the controversy around domestic surveillance and how policy makers still do not fully understand how AI technology actually works.

Presenter: Justin Webb, Radio 4 presenter and Marianna Spring, social media investigations senior correspondent Producer: Purvee Pattni, Ben Carter and Alix Pickles Sound engineer: Michael Regaard Editor: Sam Bonham

Get in touch: • Join our online community: https://discord.gg/qSrxqNcmRB • Send us a message or voice note via WhatsApp to +44 330 123 9480 • Email Americast@bbc.co.uk • Or use #Americast

If you want to be notified every time we publish a new episode, please subscribe to us on BBC Sounds by hitting the subscribe button on the app.

You can now listen to Americast on a smart speaker. If you want to listen, just say "Ask BBC Sounds to play Americast”. It works on most smart speakers.

US Election Unspun: Sign up for Anthony’s BBC newsletter: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68093155

Americast is part of the BBC News Podcasts family of podcasts. The team that makes Americast also makes lots of other podcasts, including Newscast. If you enjoy Americast (and if you're reading this then you hopefully do), then we think that you will enjoy some of our other pods too. See links below.

Newscast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/p05299nl Radical: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p0gg4k6r The Global Story: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/w13xtvsd Top Comment https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001mssm