The Globalization–Democracy Trilemma

Yascha Mounk and Klaus Schwab discuss truth, trust, and accountability—until he abruptly ended the interview.

In January, I received an email from Klaus Schwab about a new book he had just published, called Restoring Truth and Trust. It was, he told me, “part of my broader series aimed at helping a global audience understand and respond to the profound changes shaping our societies, economies, and institutions.”

I decided to invite Schwab onto my podcast. In his role at Davos, he had helped to shape, or at least to midwife, the global order which is now suffering an unprecedented crisis. Given the themes of his book, he seemed open to a genuinely searching conversation about which elements of this order were worth preserving, which others in need of jettisoning—and what responsibility the elites he knew so well might have for our current travails. I was greatly looking forward to the conversation, and approached it the way I do most of my podcasts: I was determined both to give Schwab an opportunity to present his ideas in the most compelling possible way, and to interrogate them critically.

A few questions in, it became clear that the conversation was not going well. Whenever I mildly pushed back at some point he was making, Schwab looked visibly annoyed. After about twenty minutes, he suddenly broke off the conversation, saying that he had a migraine. After giving Schwab time to recover, a member of his team stepped in and requested that we reschedule the conversation, which we were happy to do in the circumstances.

Naturally, we gave Schwab’s team many opportunities to resume the conversation. We offered numerous options for when we could record the rest of the conversation, and invited them to suggest a time that would work for him. But after a few back-and-forth exchanges, it became clear that his team had no real interest in doing so. Eventually, they openly admitted as much, writing that “Professor Schwab has decided that he does not wish to continue with the podcast.” They also asked us multiple times not to release the part of the conversation we did record.

Some podcasters consider it a kind of trophy when a public figure like Schwab walks out of an interview because he does not like the line of questioning. I don’t. The point of my podcast is to facilitate genuine conversations across ideological differences. In the 437 episodes I have recorded so far, I have sometimes experienced moments of genuine tension, and perhaps occasional flashes of hostility; but not a single guest has ever walked out of a previous recording.

Given the nature of my questions, I must admit to being even more bewildered by this turn of events. Schwab has for decades been in one of the most influential positions in the international firmament of power and influence. None of the questions I asked were posed in the spirit of a gotcha question. Are some of the most powerful people in the world really that allergic to basic intellectual scrutiny?

But don’t take my word for it. Instead, listen for yourself.

—Yascha

Klaus Schwab is the founder and former Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum. His latest book is Restoring Truth and Trust.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Klaus Schwab discuss whether the principles underlying global cooperation can survive today’s political upheaval, how democratic institutions can respond to rising populist movements without appearing tone-deaf to voters’ legitimate grievances, and what stakeholder capitalism means in practical terms for corporate decision-making.

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Email: leonora.barclay@persuasion.community

Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay.

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