Empathy as a Reporting Tool

What really happens inside the world’s most dangerous underground economies? And why do the people running them trust a journalist enough to talk?

Mariana van Zeller — Emmy- and Peabody Award–winning investigative journalist, host and executive producer of Trafficked on National Geographic, and host of The Hidden Third podcast — has spent years embedded with scammers, smugglers, cartel members, assassins, and black-market power brokers. In this episode of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, she pulls back the curtain on the shadow systems that quietly shape the global economy.

Mariana breaks down the difference between the black market vs. the grey market, why understanding these hidden economies is the only way to create real change, and how she manages to gain access to some of the most secretive and dangerous players in the world. She explains how empathy, not judgment, is often the key to getting people labeled “the worst of the worst” to open up, and why many of them speak with her because of something surprisingly simple: a deep human need to be heard and understood.

She also addresses critics who say she shouldn’t give criminals a platform, revealing why listening to these voices is essential to exposing the systems behind global crime.

We dive into her most harrowing experiences in the field — including the terrifying moment she and her team weren’t sure they would make it out alive, and the time they had to escape a country in the middle of a life-threatening military coup while filming.

Mariana also unpacks the current climate in Mexico’s drug war, explaining why violence often escalates when major cartel kingpins are taken down, and the troubling implications of the fact that many of the weapons used by cartels originate in the United States.

We get into one of the fastest-growing criminal industries in the world: scams.

She breaks down everything you’ve ever wanted to know about romance scams and “pig butchering” operations, including:

- Psychological tactics scammers use

- Who scammers typically target and why

- Massive infrastructure behind modern scam compounds

- Why many scammers are actually victims of forced labor themselves

- Why victims often stay silent due to shame and stigma

Mariana explains why advancing technology, crypto, and AI are making financial scams easier than ever, and why anyone can fall victim — no matter how smart or cautious they are, including the shocking case of a bank CEO who was successfully defrauded.

We also explore medical black markets, from organ trafficking to international surrogacy scams, and discuss some of her most intense interviews, from conversations with a suspected Russian sex spy to Anna Delvey, the infamous socialite scammer.

Despite spending her career face-to-face with some of the darkest corners of humanity, Mariana reveals something surprising: she still believes deeply in people. In fact, she sometimes finds more hope, honesty, and equality in underground markets than in global governments or legal capitalism.

This conversation will change how you think about crime, power, empathy, and the hidden systems shaping our world!

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Mariana van Zeller’s podcast, THE HIDDEN THIRD: https://www.youtube.com/@marianavanzeller

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