Bear Encounter Leads to Flow

Brad Stulberg is a researcher, writer, and coach focused on performance and sustainable excellence. In this conversation, he makes the case that excellence isn't primarily a performance strategy, but a virtue. He underscores that we’re wired to pursue our values and that the work we shape also shapes us in return. In a world obsessed with optimization, speed, and delegation, he advocates for craftsmanship, end-to-end ownership, and practicing the vulnerability required to stay close to our work and give it our all.

Memorable Quotes

1. “I think at the zenith, at the peak of excellence, we get those kinds of moments where our thinking mind is no longer on and we are just going completely by feel—moving forward, taking the next best step.”
2. “We are very much a striving species. So over the last decade, what's become a central question of mine is: How do we reconcile this need for groundedness and this foundation of presence with our hardwiring, which is striving?”
3. “No robot can give me the feeling of what it's like to get a heavy weight to move off the ground. No robot can give me the feeling of working really, really hard, grinding away at a paragraph, and then finally getting the right turn of phrase… In an increasingly digital age, I think we've got to protect things that help us feel alive and connected.”
4. “I define ‘zombie burnout’ not as a result of doing too much, but actually as a result of not doing enough of things that light you up and make you feel alive.”
5. “Far too often in rote achievement culture, we only think about ourselves working toward a goal. And what we don't realize is that our goal is shaping our character… Every action we take, we are shaping our character… We're stamping upon ourselves the person that we wanna be.”
6. “The people that we admire most are all try-hards because you cannot be your best at anything without making yourself vulnerable, risking failure, and trying hard… The things that you care about are going to break your heart because they're not always gonna go your way. But I argue that the benefits of all the richness and texture and satisfaction you get from giving things your all is big enough to hold the heartbreak.”
7. “You want to make sure that you are keeping the main thing the main thing, and you are doing the main thing. I think that it just comes down to asking yourself, ‘What is your craft?’ And by definition, your craft should be something that you are skilled in and that you see end-to-end.”

Key Takeaways

1. Excellence is a Virtue. Every pursuit shapes the person doing it. The marathon isn't just a goal you're working toward; the marathon is working on you. Giving something your all is for the sake of performance and character.
2. Burnout Isn’t Just an Hours Problem. Burnout can be a quantity problem of working too many hours. But “zombie burnout” is a quality problem arising from doing too little of what actually lights you up. We need work that aligns with our sense of autonomy, meaning, and competence.
3. Excellence Requires Four Stages. Research suggests that arriving at excellence requires four stages: Unconscious incompetence → conscious incompetence → conscious competence → unconscious competence. We can’t shortcut effortful trying, doubt, and setbacks.
4. Excellence Requires Intimacy. Masters must be up close and personal with their work, refusing to engage in distractions or shortchange their effort. Exercising excellence means risking vulnerability, failure, and even heartbreak—believing the satisfaction is worth it.
5. Don’t Delegate Your Craft. Work deeply tied to your identity (as a leader, creator, or parent) is yours to own end-to-end. Handing it off to another person or to AI undercuts your ability to shape the work and its ability to shape you. Figure out what’s uniquely yours and don’t let go.

Resources

• The Way of Excellence by Brad Stulberg
• Master of Change by Brad Stulberg
• The Practice of Groundedness by Brad Stulberg
• Peak Performance by Brad Stulberg and Steve Magness
• bradstulberg.com
• The Growth Equation Podcast

Watch on YouTube at:  https://youtu.be/cHsPrWehFeA

This episode was produced by Sarah Vorhees Wendel of VW Sound