What counts as romantic versus sexual evidence

Are lesbians “real” in the way society claims? Or is much of what we call lesbianism a modern cultural phenomenon driven by social dynamics, politics, jealousy, and intra-female competition rather than innate same-sex attraction?

In this provocative episode, Simone & Malcolm Collins unpack shocking stats (e.g., 36% of lesbians in their 40s, 50% in their 50s, and 75% of those 60+ were previously married to men), question historical “lesbians” like Sappho (whose poetry may reflect jealousy or performance rather than lust), and explore why female sexuality seems far more fluid and dominance/resource-oriented than male sexuality.

We cover:

* Skyrocketing lesbian/bisexual identification among young women (Gen Z at 5.4% lesbian)

* High rates in sports, academia, military, and urban monocultures

* “Lesbian bed death” and low sexual frequency in lesbian couples vs. gay men

* Why historical records show clear gay male attraction but mostly spinster/companion “lesbian” pairings

* Political lesbianism, the “U-Haul” stereotype, and why women may pair with women for compatibility rather than raw sexual attraction

This is NOT denial of individual experiences—some women are genuinely same-sex attracted—but a challenge to the “born this way” narrative when data and history suggest something more complex (and often male-projected) is at play.

Episode Notes

There are a variety of odd things about lesbians:

* One analysis of Census data found that around 36% of women in their 40s with same-sex partners were previously married to men

* Despite there being fewer women who identify as lesbian (A large pooled analysis reported that about 1.5% of men and 1.2% of women in surveyed populations identified as gay or lesbian, respectively), there are more lesbian marriages than gay marriages, at least in the USA (roughly 53% of same-sex marriages are lesbian)

* Women make up the lion’s share of the LGBTQIA population, but mostly due to their identification as bisexual (around twice the rate of men)

* The rate at which women identify as lesbian or bisexual is trending up with younger generations more than the rate at which young men are identifying as gay

* The percentage of lesbians among professional athletes is significantly higher than the percentage in the general population (e.g. approx 30–38% of WNBA players are openly lesbian or in same-sex relationships; this is 15–30x higher than the general population) whereas there is no difference with male athletes.

* There are also disproportionately more lesbians in academia, STEM fields, psychology/social work, law, nonprofits, the trades, and the military

I want to go through this data and get Malcolm’s impression.

Historical Lesbians

Sappho

People claim that Sappho was a lesbian (meaning a woman whose primary erotic and romantic attractions were to other women—based on the strongest available historical evidence: her own surviving poetry.

* It is argued that her poems (from around 630–570 BCE on the island of Lesbos) provide clear, direct expressions of intense desire for women,

But if her own surviving poetry is the evidence, she is no more a lesbian than modern male songwriters who write for female artists, or right-wing body building appreciators, are gay.

For context: Most scholars think Sappho’s primary audience was other women in her own elite social circle, especially the young, unmarried women she taught and led in song. Her poems were composed to be performed aloud with music, often in a small, aristocratic female community, at religious occasions (especially for female deities) and at events like weddings

In other words, you could argue she was a micro Taylor Swift.

Alleged Evidence from Her Poetry

* In (one of her most famous), the speaker describes overwhelming physical symptoms of desire—trembling, sweating, feeling near death—while watching a beloved woman sitting with a man. The intensity is portrayed as romantic/sexual jealousy and attraction to the woman.

* OK, let’s look at it:

* “That man seems to me to be equal to the gods

* who is sitting opposite you

* and hears you nearby

* speaking sweetly

* and laughing delightfully, which indeed

* makes my heart flutter in my breast;

* for when I look at you even for a short time,

* it is no longer possible for me to speak

* but it is as if my tongue is broken

* and immediately a subtle fire has run over my skin,

* I cannot see anything with my eyes,

* and my ears are buzzing

* a cold sweat comes over me, trembling

* seizes me all over, I am paler

* than grass, and I seem nearly

* to have died.

* but everything must be dared/endured, since (?even a poor man) ...”

* This could just as easily be interpreted as a girl observing romantic competition.

* It’s as if far-future humans discovered fragments of Katy Perry’s “I kissed a girl” lyrics and were like “OOOH SHE IS A LESBIAN”

* “I Kissed a Girl” was written by Katy Perry, Dr. Luke (Lukasz Gottwald), Max Martin, and Cathy Dennis, and recorded and released by Katy Perry in 2008 as her breakthrough single.

* There are loads of female written or sung songs that feature admiration for other women:

* “Suddenly I See” – KT Tunstall

* “Put Your Records On” – Corinne Bailey Rae

* “Without You Without Them” and “True Blue” – boygenius

* “Embody” – Frankie Cosmos

* “Valerie” – Amy Winehouse

* “Nana Was a Suffragette” – Helen Watson

* “Mama, I Remember You Now” – Marit Bergman

* “Isabelle” – Alba August

* “Take It As It Comes” – Vivian Girls

* Other fragments mention women by name (e.g., Atthis, Anactoria) in contexts of affection, beauty, separation, and longing, often with sensual imagery.

* In Fragment 1 (the “Hymn to Aphrodite”), the speaker prays to Aphrodite for help in winning back an ALLEGED female lover who has rejected her, using language of pursuit, flight, and reciprocation typical of erotic poetry

* Grok when asked to summarize the original Greek without referencing external sources: The speaker (Sappho) passionately calls upon Aphrodite, the immortal goddess born of Zeus, who weaves wiles and sits on a many-colored throne. She begs the goddess not to crush her heart with grief or anguish.

* She recalls how Aphrodite has heard and answered her prayers before: the goddess left her father’s golden house, yoked her swift sparrows to her chariot, and flew through the bright air over the dark earth until she arrived. Smiling with her immortal face, Aphrodite then asked what the speaker was suffering this time, whom she wanted to bring back to her love, who was wronging her, and what she most desired to happen.

* Aphrodite promised that the beloved—who now flees—would soon pursue; who now rejects gifts would soon give them; who now does not love would soon love, even against her will.

* The poem ends with the speaker pleading for Aphrodite to come now, release her from painful worries, grant whatever her heart longs to achieve, and stand as her ally once again.

* I also asked Grok if she is referring to a woman:

* The speaker in Sappho’s Hymn to Aphrodite (Fragment 1) is asking Aphrodite for help to win the favor (or return the love/affection) of a woman.

* This is clear from the original Greek text in the lines where Aphrodite speaks:

* τίνα δηὖτε πείθω ἄψ σ᾿ ἄγην ἐς ϝὰν φιλότατα; (”Whom again must I persuade to lead you back into her love?”)

* τίς σ᾿, ὦ Ψάπφ᾿, ἀδικήει; (”Who, O Sappho, is wronging you?”)

* καὶ γὰρ αἰ φεύγει, ταχέως διώξει... αἰ δὲ μὴ φίλει, ταχέως φιλήσει κωὐκ ἐθέλοισα (”For if she flees, soon she will pursue... if she does not love, soon she will love, even unwillingly.”)

* The key indicator is the feminine participle ἐθέλοισα (”willing/wanting,” in the phrase “even against her will”), which grammatically marks the beloved as female. Earlier translations sometimes rendered the beloved as male (e.g., “he” in some 18th–19th century versions), but modern scholarship and editions overwhelmingly accept the text as referring to a woman, consistent with Sappho’s recurring themes of desire for women.

* I took the English translated text and submitted it to Perplexity, asking: “Please summarize this poem. What is the author asking the goddess aphrodite to do?”

* It wrote:

* This poem — often titled “Hymn to Aphrodite” and attributed to the ancient Greek poet Sappho — is a lyrical prayer to the goddess Aphrodite, asking for divine help in matters of love.

* The speaker (Sappho herself) calls upon Aphrodite to relieve her from emotional pain and to assist her in winning the affection of the person she loves. She reminds the goddess of previous times when Aphrodite listened to her pleas, descended from heaven in her chariot drawn by birds, and comforted her, promising that love’s power would soon turn in her favor — that the one who now rejects her will eventually return her love.

* In short, Sappho is asking Aphrodite to:

* Ease her suffering caused by unrequited love.

* Intervene in the situation so the beloved will reciprocate her feelings.

* Be her ally once again, just as the goddess had been before.

* An image to keep in mind: Sappho is like a heartbroken devotee calling her divine patron down from the heavens, pleading for the goddess’s aid to transform longing into love.

Scholars generally agree these are not mere “platonic” friendships or literary personas detached from the poet’s life; the vivid, personal tone and consistency across fragments strongly suggest they reflect Sappho’s own experiences and attractions. Ancient sources (e.g., later Greek and Roman writers) sometimes compare her love for women to Socrates’ for men, acknowledging the erotic dimension.

Why the Strong Association with Lesbianism?

The link is both literary and etymological:

* Her home island: Sappho was from Lesbos, so “Lesbian” originally just meant “from Lesbos.” By the late 6th century BCE (or shortly after), the term shifted in popular usage to refer to women who preferred women sexually, largely because of Sappho’s fame and the content of her poetry.

* Her name: “Sapphic” (from Sappho) became an adjective for female same-sex desire or relationships. Both “lesbian” and “sapphic” entered English and other languages in the 19th–20th centuries specifically to describe women loving women, directly inspired by her.

* Cultural symbolism: In antiquity, her poetry was celebrated (Plato called her the “tenth Muse”), but her sexuality was debated or mocked in comedy. Over time—especially after the Renaissance and into modern queer scholarship—her work became a foundational symbol of lesbian love, surviving despite efforts to suppress or reinterpret it (e.g., later claims she was heterosexual or that her poems were fictional).

Caveats

* Some fragments hint at attraction to men too (or at least heterosexual marriage norms), so she might have been bisexual by modern standards, but the surviving erotic poetry is overwhelmingly directed toward women.

* Much of her work was lost (possibly due to later moral censorship), and ancient rumors sometimes portrayed her as promiscuous with men instead (e.g., the fictional story of leaping off a cliff for a man named Phaon). These seem like later attempts to “straightwash” her reputation.

In summary, while we can’t prove every detail of her personal life, the primary evidence—her poetry’s explicit erotic focus on women—makes Sappho the archetypal historical lesbian poet. That’s why she’s so strongly associated with lesbianism: her words gave voice to female same-sex desire in a way that has echoed for over 2,500 years, directly inspiring the very terms we use today.

Notable Historical Lesbians

These are people who have relatively strong primary-source evidence of long-term female partnerships that are either primarily or exclusively female-attachment in nature:

* Anne Lister (1791–1840) — Known as the “first modern lesbian,” the English landowner and diarist wrote extensive, decoded diaries detailing her sexual relationships with multiple women (using terms like “kiss” for sex). Her most notable long-term partnership was with Ann Walker; they took communion together as a commitment ceremony in 1834 (often called one of the earliest known lesbian “weddings”) and lived together at Shibden Hall until Lister’s death.

* The Ladies of Llangollen — Eleanor Butler (1739–1829) and Sarah Ponsonby (1755–1831) — These two Irish women eloped together in the late 18th century, lived as a devoted couple in Wales for over 50 years in a shared home (Plâs Newydd), and were celebrated (and sometimes scandalized) in their time as inseparable romantic partners who rejected heterosexual marriage.

* Jane Addams (1860–1935) — The American Nobel Peace Prize-winning social reformer and founder of Hull House had a primary, decades-long romantic partnership with Mary Rozet Smith. They lived together for about 40 years, exchanged daily affectionate letters (with endearments like “Dearest One” and expressions of lifelong commitment), and were viewed by contemporaries as a married couple in all but legal name.

* Radclyffe Hall (1880–1943) — The English novelist (author of the groundbreaking lesbian novel The Well of Loneliness) lived openly in masculine presentation and had a long-term partnership with Una Troubridge (from around 1915 until Hall’s death), who was her devoted companion, lover, and eventual biographer. They were known as a couple in artistic and queer circles.

* Sally Ride (1951–2012) — The first American woman in space had a 27-year romantic and domestic partnership with Tam O’Shaughnessy (her childhood friend, business partner, and co-author), publicly confirmed after Ride’s death through her obituary and family statements.

* Ruth Ellis (1899–2000) — Often called the world’s oldest “out” lesbian, the African-American hairdresser and activist lived openly as a lesbian from her teens. She had a long-term partnership with Ceciline “Babe” Franklin starting in the 1930s (around 30 years), running businesses together and hosting queer community events in Detroit.

Other strong cases include Eleanor Roosevelt (long-term intense relationship with Lorena “Hick” Hickok, evidenced by thousands of passionate letters and exchanged rings) and Willa Cather (lived with Edith Lewis for nearly 40 years in a committed domestic partnership, with letters and contemporary accounts indicating romance)

Note: When you ask AI about historical gay men you get a bunch more answers

* Hadrian (76–138 CE) — Roman Emperor. His passionate, long-term relationship with Antinous (a young Greek man) is one of the most famous in antiquity. Hadrian deified Antinous after his death by drowning in the Nile (c. 130 CE), built cities and monuments in his honor (including the city of Antinoöpolis), and commissioned countless statues and busts depicting him. Contemporary sources describe their bond as deeply romantic and erotic; Hadrian had other male lovers but Antinous was his primary and most celebrated partner.

* Alexander the Great (356–323 BCE) — Macedonian king and conqueror. His lifelong, intense relationship with Hephaestion (his childhood friend and closest companion) is described in ancient sources (e.g., Plutarch, Arrian) as mirroring Achilles and Patroclus, with strong romantic/sexual implications. They shared tents, fought together, and Hephaestion’s death in 324 BCE devastated Alexander, leading to extravagant mourning. Alexander also had a notable relationship with the Persian eunuch Bagoas.

* Edward II (1284–1327) — King of England. His devoted, decades-long relationship with Piers Gaveston (his favorite and possible lover) caused political scandal; chroniclers described them as inseparable, with Edward granting Gaveston immense power and titles. After Gaveston’s execution in 1312, Edward formed a similar intense bond with Hugh Despenser the Younger until both were overthrown and Edward deposed/murdered. Contemporary accounts and letters portray these as primary romantic/sexual partnerships over his marriage.

* Oscar Wilde (1854–1900) — Irish playwright and author (The Importance of Being Earnest). Openly involved in same-sex relationships despite Victorian laws, his most famous long-term partnership was with Lord Alfred “Bosie” Douglas (from 1891 onward), documented through passionate (and explicit) letters, shared living, and the 1895 trial where Wilde was convicted of “gross indecency.” Their relationship was central to Wilde’s downfall.

* Alan Turing (1912–1954) — British mathematician and WWII codebreaker. Prosecuted in 1952 for a homosexual relationship with Arnold Murray (leading to chemical castration), Turing had documented same-sex attractions and relationships. While not always long-term due to secrecy and persecution, his case is a landmark of confirmed gay identity in modern history.

* Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky (1840–1893) — Russian composer. His letters and diaries reveal strong, passionate attractions to men, including long-term emotional/romantic bonds with figures like his patron Nadezhda von Meck‘s brother (though primarily male-focused). He had a disastrous short marriage to a woman as cover, but historians widely agree his primary orientation and relationships were homosexual.

* James VI and I (1566–1625) — King of Scotland and England.

* Contemporary accounts and letters describe multiple intense male favorites, especially George Villiers, Duke of Buckingham (from ~1614 until James’s death), with whom he shared beds, exchanged affectionate/gushing correspondence (”my sweet child and wife”), and granted extraordinary power. Earlier favorites included Esmé Stewart and Robert Carr.

The Sex Issue

A widely cited early study by sociologists Pepper Schwartz and Philip Blumstein (from their 1983 book American Couples, based on surveys of thousands of couples) found notable differences in rates of sex, particularly in the early stages of relationships:

* Among couples together for 2 years or less, 67% of gay male couples reported sex 3+ times per week, compared to 45% of heterosexual couples and 33% of lesbian couples.

* Among couples together for 10+ years, only 11% of gay male couples reported sex that often, compared to 18% of heterosexual couples and just 1% of lesbian couples.

This pattern has been replicated in subsequent research. Reviews and summaries (including from sources like the Encyclopedia of Human Relationships and various journal articles) indicate that, on average:

* Lesbian couples report the lowest sexual frequency among couple types (gay male, heterosexual, lesbian).

* Gay male couples often report the highest frequency early on, though it aligns more closely with heterosexual couples in longer-term relationships.

More recent analyses (e.g., from the 2010s onward) confirm lesbian couples tend to have sex less often—for instance, higher proportions reporting sex once a month or less (sometimes 23–74% in certain samples, depending on the study and comparison group) compared to other pairings. Gay male couples in relationships often show frequencies similar to or slightly higher than heterosexual couples.

The term “lesbian bed death” originated from these findings (particularly the Schwartz/Blumstein study) to describe a perceived sharp decline in sexual activity in long-term lesbian relationships.

While frequency is lower, lesbian couples frequently report:

* Longer duration of individual sexual encounters.

* Higher rates of orgasm during sex (e.g., lesbian women ~86% in some large U.S. samples, vs. ~65% for heterosexual women).

* Equal or greater overall sexual and relationship satisfaction, often emphasizing quality, emotional intimacy, communication, and non-penetrative activities over sheer frequency.

The Marriage Issue

Women formerly married to men:

* A commonly cited UCLA Williams Institute analysis of Census data (from around 2010 or earlier periods) found that 36% of women in their 40s with same-sex partners had previously been married to men. This rose to over 50% for those in their 50s and about 75% for those 60 and older.

* This pattern is attributed to many women coming out later in life, often after heterosexual marriages and families.

* In more recent data on remarriages (from 2019 ACS analysis by Bowling Green State University), about 42% of women entering same-sex marriages were remarrying (implying a prior marriage, which was almost always to a man given historical norms and data patterns pre-marriage equality).

* Contrast that with gay men:

* The same older Williams Institute/Census analyses suggest the rate is notably lower than for women, with expert consensus that late-life transitions (coming out after a heterosexual marriage) are less common among men.

* In the 2019 ACS data, only about 23% of men entering same-sex marriages were remarrying (compared to 42% for women), implying a much lower share with prior opposite-sex marriages.

More Married Lesbians

* Approximately 53% of U.S. same-sex marriages are between women (lesbians).

* This slight female majority has been consistent in recent years:

* Earlier Census/ACS-based analyses (e.g., 2021 data) showed similar patterns, with female same-sex married couples often around 52–55%.

* In contrast, recent (2019) new marriages to same-sex couples were about 55% female-female and 45% male-male (Bowling Green State University/ACS analysis), suggesting women may enter same-sex marriages at a slightly higher rate in some periods.

Country Differences

Weirdly, there may be more lesbian couples in the USA than gay couples?

As of mid-2025, there are an estimated ~823,000 married same-sex couples in the U.S. (Williams Institute), with ~53% female couples (~436,000 couples, or ~872,000 women) and ~47% male couples.

1-2% of women around the world identify as lesbians

* Globally (Ipsos averages across 20-30 countries, 2021-2025): ~1% of women identify as lesbian/homosexual, compared to ~4% of men as gay/homosexual. Women are more likely to identify as bisexual (often 2-5%+), leading to higher overall LGBTQ+ rates among women.

* In the US (most detailed data via Gallup): Lesbian identification is around 1.4% of the total population, translating to roughly 1-2% of women (since ~15% of LGBTQ+ adults are lesbian, and women dominate LGBTQ+ identification due to bisexuality).

* Cross-country direct comparisons for “lesbian only” among women are rare outside the US/UK; many sources combine gay/lesbian or report overall same-sex attraction (higher than identity).

* Rates are higher among younger women (e.g., 5.4% of US Gen Z women identify as lesbian per Gallup), but overall adult figures remain in the 1-2% range for most major Western countries.

* Data for non-Western or less-surveyed major countries (e.g., Japan, China, India) is even lower or underreported due to cultural factors and survey limitations.

Compare that to bisexuals:

(and keep in mind that there are about twice as many bisexual women as men)

* Western countries (US, UK, Canada, Australia, etc.): Bisexual identification among women is notably higher (often 4–8% overall, 15–20%+ for Gen Z women), reflecting greater social acceptance and fluidity in labeling.

* Asian countries (Japan, China, South Korea): Rates remain very low (<2%), due to cultural, familial, and societal pressures limiting self-identification.

* India: Shows variability with higher bisexual reports in some Ipsos data (possibly urban/online bias), but overall non-hetero identification is suppressed.

* Globally, bisexuality drives much of the recent LGBTQ+ growth (especially among young women), with Gen Z women leading (e.g., 9%+ bisexual in global Ipsos Gen Z averages).

The Generational Issue

* Gallup’s most recent data (2024 survey, published 2025) shows lesbian identification (exclusive “lesbian” label) remains relatively stable across generations at ~1–2% of women overall, with a slight increase among younger women. The dramatic generational rise in women’s LGBTQ+ identification is driven almost entirely by bisexuality.

* Exclusive lesbian identification remains low (~1.4% overall for women) but is higher in younger cohorts (e.g., ~5% of Gen Z women in 2023 data) than in older ones.

Gay Men as Contrast

* Young women are ~2.5–3x more likely than young men to identify as LGBTQ+ (31% vs. 12% in Gen Z; 18% vs. 9% in millennials). This gap has widened over time, largely due to higher bisexuality among women.

* Gay men identification is more stable across generations (~2% overall for men), with less dramatic increases in youth compared to women. Younger men are more likely bisexual than exclusively gay.

The Professional Athlete Issue

As a baseline: gay men in men’s professional sports remain very low (often <1–2%, close to or below general population estimates for gay men ~2–4%).

* WNBA (Women’s National Basketball Association): Estimates range from ~30–38% of players are openly lesbian or in same-sex relationships (e.g., ~38% in studies from 2020–2025; lists of 37–39 out players in recent seasons out of ~144 total roster spots). This is 15–30x higher than the general population.

* Women’s Soccer/Football (e.g., national teams and pro leagues like NWSL, international World Cup): ~12% publicly out as lesbian in some reports (e.g., 2023 Women’s World Cup data); higher in specific teams (e.g., portions of U.S. or Australian squads).

* Olympics/Elite International Levels: Out LGBTQ women (mostly lesbian or queer) outnumber out LGBTQ men by ~9:1 in recent Games (e.g., Paris 2024 trends). Women’s team sports like soccer, basketball, and rugby show particularly high visibility of out lesbians.

* Other Sports (e.g., rugby, ice hockey): Reports indicate 15%+ openly queer/lesbian in professional women’s rugby leagues.

Why could this be?

* Some argue women’s sports = a ‘safe space’ for lesbians

* Women’s sports presents a place where masculine behaviors are more accepted

* Higher average testosterone

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