All Tragedies as Thermodynamic

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Rebecca Newberger Goldstein is a MacArthur Genius Award recipient, philosopher, novelist, and author of The Mattering Instinct. Her verdict on why human beings are driven to matter — and what threatens that drive — might change how you think about your own life. Check out her recent appearance on Mindscape here.

In this conversation, we discuss why every human being is haunted by the need to matter, the four types of people and how each one tries to satisfy that longing, why Ludwig Boltzmann's tragic death is a thermodynamic story, how depression maps onto entropy, whether AI can ever have a mattering instinct, and why heroic strivers are the most threatened by artificial intelligence. We also get into what Freud got wrong about what women want, the physics of matter versus the philosophy of mattering, and why the second law of thermodynamics may be the most personal law in all of science.

Rebecca Newberger Goldstein is a philosopher, novelist, and MacArthur Genius Award recipient. She is the author of multiple books including Plato at the Googleplex and 36 Arguments for the Existence of God. Her newest book, The Mattering Instinct, is one of Apple's most anticipated books of the year.

00:00 Why every human being needs to matter — and what happens when they can't 

03:30 The second law of thermodynamics and what it has to do with your life 

13:10 The 4 types of people: Transcenders, Socializers, Heroic Strivers, and Competitors 

16:25 Why fame-seeking millennials will give up everything — including relationships 

22:05 Zero-sum mattering: the competitor who was happy for 15 minutes after winning a Nobel Prize 

23:20 Ludwig Boltzmann solved one of physics' greatest paradoxes — then despaired 

28:45 All tragedies are thermodynamic — and so is depression 

35:40 Life as resistance to entropy: what flourishing actually means 

48:35 Can AI have a mattering instinct? What that would mean for human rights and everything we think we are

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