Why people seek thick institutions

Today's guest on The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie is Jonah Goldberg, the editor in chief of The Dispatch, a publication that launched a half-dozen years ago and whose contributors include conservatives such as cofounder and former Weekly Standard editor Steve Hayes, libertarian-leaning Washington Post columnist Megan McArdle, and liberal science writer and Blocked & Reported cohost Jesse Singal. A longtime fixture at National Review (where he launched the magazine's website and created its popular staff blog The Corner), best-selling author, and podcast host (The Remnant, GLoP Culture), Goldberg and Gillespie discuss the Iran war, President Donald Trump's second term, the rise of the populist right, and the prospects of a coalition consisting of centrist liberals, conservatives, and libertarians.

"I have no sense that the Republicans are my team in any way. And that's very, very liberating intellectually and journalistically," says Goldberg.

Long known for withering takes on the left—one of his books is titled Liberal Fascism—it's the right wing that is currently piquing his anger. "All presidents have lied," he says. "But the scale of lying with Trump is different….Bullshit does not care what the truth is, and I think that that's sort of the essence of Donald Trump, going back to his days as a condo salesman. He just says whatever he has to say to get through the moment."

"I'm not a big fan of J.D. Vance, but eating giant bowls of feces handed to you by the president is the job of vice president," he says, adding it's the former Ohio senator's "whorishness" that especially offends him. "It's not so much that he agrees with Nick Fuentes or he loves everything that Tucker Carlson is doing, but he'll be damned if he'll tolerate excessive criticism or any attempt to silence or cancel these people. He exerts more effort defending people making 'how many Jews can fit in a Volkswagen ashtray jokes' than he does his own wife or anything else."

Goldberg predicts that when Trump leaves the national stage, the people around him in politics and the media will face a radically different world, one in which they will not be able to adapt. "Once the celebrity goes, you're left with a bunch of politicians, some of whom are really dumb or mean," who will "have to actually make arguments not based on bullying."* He thinks "that's a great world for…mainstream conservative [and] mainstream libertarian stuff because those guys actually have good facts on their side."

0:00—Jonah Goldberg introduction

3:32—Congressional authorization for Iran war

11:34—MAGA and policy coherence

22:36—The political calculations of J.D. Vance

31:58—The postliberal right and power over principle

35:24—The evolution of Tucker Carlson

39:31—Religion in politics and Christian nationalism

52:49—The state of the Democratic Party

57:50—Generational attitudes toward institutions

1:08:36—Political realignments for 2026 and 2028

*CORRECTION: The original version of this article mistranscribed a quote from Goldberg.

• Producer: Paul Alexander
• Audio Mixer: Ian Keyser

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