Historical Fiction and Drama vs. Documentary Truth

Legendary documentarian Ken Burns joins the Chuck Toddcast for a sweeping conversation about American history, the craft of telling it honestly, and why historical perspective has never mattered more than it does right now. Burns addresses head-on the criticism that his work is "woke," arguing that his documentaries have a perspective but it's not left versus right — he wants to call balls and strikes, and the truth shouldn't be something people fear. He offers a striking defense of nuance, noting that the Republican Party has been the most successful political party on earth and that his life's work has been about making films about both the U.S. and "us" — the complicated, contradictory people who built and continue to shape the country. Burns discusses his latest project on the American Revolution, which he insists he didn't intentionally time to the 250th anniversary, and reveals he's also working on a film about Reconstruction and potentially a documentary on the Cold War. He walks through his rigorous process for evaluating source material, the challenge of needing great actors to bring the founders to life, and how those founders were obsessively focused on virtue — creating something genuinely new in human history while writing a Constitution brilliant enough to endure centuries but unable to foresee Congress voluntarily abdicating its own power.

The conversation takes a fascinating philosophical turn as they explore the recurring patterns of American history: the manufacture of fear as a tool for authoritarians, the repeated failure of using government to force social change, and the way religion has been wielded as a cudgel by governments despite the founders being explicitly against a national religion. Burns offers a revealing window into his methodology, explaining that you need 25 to 30 years of distance before you can responsibly cover a historical subject, and that Trump's presidency has effectively constipated the scholarship on the Obama era because the two will be forever intertwined in history. He notes that views on Vietnam's legacy shifted vastly over decades, and that the passage of time is essential for triangulating toward truth — take historians for their knowledge, not always their perspective. 

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Timeline:

(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)

00:00 Ken Burns joins the Chuck ToddCast

00:45 No shortage of American history topics to cover

01:45 Having historical perspective is incredibly important

03:30 American revolution one of the most important events in history

04:00 Criticism of his documentary as being “woke”, fearful of the truth

05:15 The Republican party has been the most successful party on earth

06:15 Making films about the U.S. and also “Us”

07:00 Ken’s documentaries have a perspective, but it’s not left vs. right

07:45 You want to call “ball & strikes”

09:15 Making a film about the Reconstruction period

10:00 The author’s politics matter when consuming historical books

11:15 People want historical events to match their worldview

12:30 The process for evaluating source material for his documentaries

14:45 The founders were incredibly focused on virtue

15:30 Needed great actors to bring the founders to life

16:15 The American experiment was something new in human history

17:00 Didn’t mean to time “The American Revolution” release on 250th 

18:30 Constitution is a brilliant document, didn’t foresee congress abdicating

20:30 The manufacture of fear empowers authoritarians

22:30 There’s so many historical items with which to tell the story

25:00 Using government as instrument of social change

26:15 Prohibition was going to happen with or without the Spanish Flu pandemic

29:00 Forcing social change via government was never going to work well

31:00 We don’t teach the history of religion out of fear

32:45 Deism became the religious choice of many of the founders

33:15 Religion has been used as a cudgel by governments

34:00 Founders were explicitly against a national religion

37:00 The story of America’s progress & transformation is incredible

38:15 What’s the most recent past events that you’re comfortable covering?

39:15 Trump’s presidency has constipated the scholarship on Obama era

40:15 Trump & Obama will be intertwined in history

41:00 You need 25-30 years to pass before covering a historical subject

41:30 Views on the legacy of Vietnam changed vastly over the decades

42:30 Using the passage of time to triangulate

44:15 It’s good to take historians for their knowledge, not always their perspective

45:15 Potentially producing a documentary about the Cold War

47:45 We’ve had 3 straight one-term presidents, never happened in 20th century

49:15 After the USSR dissolved, Republicans made Bill Clinton the enemy

50:30 When will you tackle your first 21st century event?

51:45 Race is a part of telling every historical American story

53:00 Killer Angels is Ken’s favorite historical fiction

54:00 Any interest in producing dramatized history?

55:00 God is the greatest dramatist

56:15 How should we celebrate America 250?

57:00 Washington was incredibly rich and risked it all

58:15 Yellowstone covers many facets of the American experience

59:45 Simplifying complex history is the behavior of authoritarians

1:02:00 Thoroughly enjoy doing the hard work of making documentaries

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