Company timing: usage models before IPO

Ellis tells Alex about his storytelling speech for AI founders at Andreessen Horowitz, and they discuss how OpenAI beat Meta to hire the founder of OpenClaw. Then they’re joined by Notion CEO Ivan Zhao to talk about the rise of AI agents. They discuss building custom agents inside Notion, his own AI workflow, why he's focused on hiring young people, and why he thinks every software company needs to become agent-friendly to survive.

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