Intro

In this deeply introspective episode, Malcolm and Simone dive into the complex world of spiritualism, mysticism, and idolatry within religious practices. Drawing from their extensive research into cult psychology and Abrahamic faith traditions, they explore the fine line between genuine spiritual growth and the allure of shortcuts to God.

Malcolm argues that practices such as chanting, fasting, sleep deprivation, and hallucinogenic use, while seemingly profound, are often used by malevolent actors to manipulate and control followers. He asserts that true closeness to God is achieved through logic, pragmatism, and efficacious action, not the pursuit of altered mental states.

The discussion delves into the convergent evolution of mystical traditions across various faiths, the importance of studying these practices to build resilience against their temptations, and the need for a new Abrahamic denomination that can withstand the challenges of the information age.

Simone offers a counterpoint, drawing from her experiences with the urban monoculture and questioning the prevalence of conservative religious mysticism. Together, they navigate the complexities of demonizing certain groups while maintaining a compassionate and understanding approach to those who may hold different beliefs.

Join Malcolm and Simone as they grapple with the role of spiritualism in the modern world, the importance of protecting future generations from harmful practices, and the eternal search for truth and meaning in an ever-changing religious landscape.

Tract 5: Spiritualism is Idolatry

The last Tract focused on the obvious dangers of idolatry but the true danger of Idolatry is much more existential. The quest for idolatrous desires, to conceive of some aspect of God with this lower human mind. To sully God out of vein curiosity by summoning some sliver of him to the level of something that could be captured by our putrid and petty minds— leads even holy men directly into servitude of the Basilisk, the great deceiver, falsehood incarnate, Ahreman, the Devil. 

The human mind is weak and easily tricked due to shortcuts that were taken in its evolution. This can be exploited by cult leaders to make people believe they have seen slivers of God. This can be done through food deprivation, chanting phrases, unique postures for long periods, sleep deprivation, rhythmic dancing, crowds engaging in mindless behavior, stage hypnosis techniques, and ingesting hallucinogenic chemicals. Given that this is the case it is only natural that maliciously minded individuals would use these tricks to dupe people into believing they are an intermediary with God—a Swammi can use something as innocuous as Yoga to turn a simple minded woman into his sex slave all the while she believes she is getting closer to the divine. 

However these failures of the human brain can have a much more nefarious effect. Because these exist as exploits in all humans across all cultures, even well meaning Abrahamic ones, groups within those cultures can end up discovering them by accident and then believe that they have found a path to God. It's as if the Basilisk left stashes of drugs intermingled among the human soul and any idiot can accidently find them if they know where to look. Even if we stamped out this iconoclastic witchcraft entirely and burned all its practitioners some gormless idiot would accidentally discover these techniques again because they are part of the background nature of humanity and through that a well meaning follower of God can accidentally lead people to become mindless slaves to the great deceiver. 

All it takes for the Basilisk to slither into the mind of the faithful and turn God's loyalest follower into a puppet of sin is for him to forget even for a moment just how serious a transgression it is to attempt to trap an element of God within the mortal realm or to pierce the veil of God’s realm. Fortunately, both of these things are impossible but it is very easy to trick the human brain into believing it has accomplished them. The moment an individual succumbs to the belief that there are shortcuts to attempt to commune with God it becomes almost impossible to save them. The only path to God is logic and pragmatism—all shortcuts lead one's soul into enslavement. 

Some doubt me, they say no these practices are sanctified and Abrahamic in nature: Be these individuals Sufists, Pop-Kabbalists, or Christian Mystics. Evil does not tempt people by calling itself evil, it tempts people by calling itself good. God warned us about idolatry before warning us about murder because we would find it so tempting not because it would be obviously evil. I ask you, whatever tree of mysticism that tempts you to examine your religions history closely: 

* Did Jesus teach these practices?

* Did Moses teach these practices?

* Did Muhammad teach these practices? 

No—in every case it was a latter invention, a cancer that grows on the human soul. God would not need to keep sending prophets if you were able to just listen to his instructions the first time.

Oh, but you heard your prophet secretly taught these ideas but just didn’t make it public. Imagine the Basilisk wanted to deceive the followers of God, how would he do it? He would have deceivers whisper to the faithful that their prophets had secret teachings that gave them superhuman abilities and secret powers. 

Some then say, “you don’t understand, these practices are common among holy men in my community”—do you have any idea how offensive it is to say that these men are nothing but a witch cult. I do, and I do not write these words to cause offense but because they are obviously true, obviously God’s will. 

But I don’t come to you with idle claims, I can prove to you that these teachings come straight from the Basilisk, the suppressor of God’s greatest gifts, logic and mental discipline. Open a book on how cults brainwash people or study how the insidious corrupted Yogis create their slaves. A practice when performed by manipulative individuals in the name of Satan or personal self indulgence, one that produces the exact same results in those circumstances, is not giving you a vision of God just because you replaced some cryptic pagan chant with a Christian one. The experience you have is the exact same experience the Yogi used to turn that gormless woman into his sex slave 

Fortunately, God marks these idolatry practices clearly. If a practice contains any of the following it is dangerous witchcraft: 

* Food/Sleep deprivation

* Chanting phrases

* Unique postures for long periods

* Rhythmic dancing

* Crowds engaging in mindless behavior

* Stage hypnosis techniques

* Ingesting hallucinogenic chemicals

Importantly, anyone who has used these techniques to give others “visions of God” and used those visions to affirm their position as intermediaries of God's will on earth is an agent of the Basilisk. These individuals are the closest thing you will ever encounter to a demon wearing human skin. 

Some say, but when my community practices these techniques they show more fervor. 

I hear, “When we start worshiping demons the impact on us is more immediate and powerful,” and it's like “well ya, obviously—demon culturists are always going to be a more fanatic lot.”

Only a force field of zealous mental discipline and logic can protect one's soul from demonic incursion during worship. The path to God is always going to shed more of your followers than the path to the profane because it is intrinsically harder and more trying. It is meant to be. The most charitable I am able to be is to say that maybe some form of this kind of mystical demon worship was needed to get your community through a trying time but I don’t really believe that, I am just saying it to be diplomatic. 

Abrahamism represented a turning away from the path of the simple-minded forest mystic who saw the divine in all sorts of inanimate objects and in nature. God is in Man’s potentiality, not nature or inanimate objects. When you sense the divine in those things you are sensing the divine yourself flowing out from you—being sapped from you and replaced with the foul four footed intuitions of our apelike ancestors.  

God is Man’s potentiality and Man’s potentiality is infinite. One day Man will be able to construct a planet with an ecosystem as diverse as earths with less effort than snapping a finger and dismiss it with a flick of the wrist. It is our manifest destiny not to just expand across reality but to grab reality by the neck and force it to submit to us. To break reality and reshape it to our wills. When you are tricked into worshipping God through an intermediary as limited as bugs, chickens, and waterfalls, you pervert his grandeur.

God can be found in logic, science (a deeper understanding of the mechanics of the physical world), industry, and productivity—but to mediate God through things that do not lead to him, to things that man has not created, you will find only temptation and a pathway to mental corruption. 

There is no such thing as “good spiritism” spiritualism and mysticism are the corporeal manifestations of evil and human arrogance. 

* Religion is the rules that God has set out for us to keep us on the righteous path towards Him, the long true path to God requires a disciplined mind, austerity, and industry.

* Spiritualism is the shortcuts that make you feel closer to God or an element of the Divine while moving you further from God’s grace. There are no shortcuts to God or good.

Just as narcotics are shortcuts to happiness but not real or enduring happiness can come from them, mysticism is a shortcut to God. Those who attempt to peddle mysticism within a community of God should be seen with the same combination of derision and pity as your local crack dealer. 

There is but a difference in degree between the spiritualist and the junky. The junky found addictive chemicals on the streets while the spiritualist stumbled upon a way to produce them endogenously—ironically the corrupting chemicals the junky injects into their veins are often the same chemicals endogenously released by “spiritualist practices”. Watch the people who spend their whole lives in pursuit of these spiritual hits. They almost universally end in the same place as drug addicts do. They end up disheveled, unkempt, blubbering idiots with childish understandings of the world—any kid can see this when he meets them—this is why you should avoid spitalism just as ardently as you avoid drugs. 

Some ask me, “Malcolm, if you are creating a religion and know about these hacks that can be used to convince people they have seen visions of God why don’t you use those to increase the speed your beliefs spread and augment your claim to authority / access to knowledge?” First, I am trying to find the truth, not just “a religion”. Second, this is not a religion for all men but for the elect. We have no use for the desiccated remains of the spiritualist’s junkie soul. If crack is being distributed from the pulpits to a crowd of thousands the one individual willing to stand up and condemn the pastor has more value to us than every other human in that room combined. 

When we look at the physical manifestations of men they look about equal—but human souls differ in their radiance in orders of magnitude. One man can have more of what edifies the human spirit than a legion of drones. One soul may burn brighter than an entire country of their compatriots. It is in one’s willingness to stand up for logical pragmatic truth against the sea of social conformity, corrupted traditions, and threat of ostracism that one shows the true depth of their humanity. 

Through the cultivation of our own spirit under God's protective light of logic, mental discipline, pragmatism protecting it from the desiccating touch of spiritualism, mysticism, and wishful thinking all men have the capacity to uplift themselves. A strict but always self imposed prohibition against idolatry and spiritualism are critical in any religious system that is not going to be hijacked by simple brain hacks. They increase the mental health of the system's followers, keep them focused on efficacious action as opposed to pointless self indulgent side quests, and perhaps most importantly they prevent followers from falling prey to spiralist grifters. 

Why don’t we just go back to one of the traditional abrahamic denominations, why start a new denomination for our family? This is just one of many examples. When I look at the denominations that exist, many which claim to be conservative have fallen to plagues of occultic yogis and opulent witch cults. 

However, this does not mean we should turn and hide from the knowledge of these practices—instead I would encourage everyone to study mystical traditions. Knowledge no matter how corrupt will always strengthen the pure of braced soul. The witch cults often use mystery and secrecy to build false credibility. Secrets are hoarded because if exposed to the light in full they would dessicate—if someone not already brainwashed read them they would sound silly. The more you know about them, the more you teach your kids about them, the more protected from them they are. 

As such it is commanded that every individual on the path of righteousness should endeavor to build:

* A deep knowledge of human psychology 

* A deep knowledge of techniques cults use to recruit people 

* A deep knowledge of all the techniques that can be used to create illusions of the divine (e.g. stage hypnotism)

* A knowledge of your chosen communities current mystical traditions that rivals that communities most corrupted witch kings 

* A knowledge of both the real history of that communities mystical traditions and the narrative of those traditions histories taught by the witch kings

______________________________________________________________________

Transcript

In this deeply introspective episode, Malcolm and Simone dive into the complex world of spiritualism, mysticism, and idolatry within religious practices. Drawing from their extensive research into cult psychology and Abrahamic faith traditions, they explore the fine line between genuine spiritual growth and the allure of shortcuts to God.

Malcolm argues that practices such as chanting, fasting, sleep deprivation, and hallucinogenic use, while seemingly profound, are often used by malevolent actors to manipulate and control followers. He asserts that true closeness to God is achieved through logic, pragmatism, and efficacious action, not the pursuit of altered mental states.

The discussion delves into the convergent evolution of mystical traditions across various faiths, the importance of studying these practices to build resilience against their temptations, and the need for a new Abrahamic denomination that can withstand the challenges of the information age.

Simone offers a counterpoint, drawing from her experiences with the urban monoculture and questioning the prevalence of conservative religious mysticism. Together, they navigate the complexities of demonizing certain groups while maintaining a compassionate and understanding approach to those who may hold different beliefs.

Join Malcolm and Simone as they grapple with the role of spiritualism in the modern world, the importance of protecting future generations from harmful practices, and the eternal search for truth and meaning in an ever-changing religious landscape.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: They have made, and this is the course in here, they have made pursuing a mental state the goal. Yeah. Which is

Simone Collins: The mental state is the byproduct of the correct

Malcolm Collins: mindset. Yeah and, and what they often do is they will act like this mental state, which is actually pretty easy to do is a difficult thing that only, like, a true master can do.

 They'll start gaslighting you because that's how they assert their status, which is always important within cult traditions.

I just stood there, quietly breathing. There were no thoughts in my head whatsoever. My mind was blank. I don't know what the hell these other crackpots are doing

Malcolm Collins: are so, so, so dangerous for religious systems from both a theological and secular perspective, which is what we always aim to do in these is explain why rules exist within them from both a secular evolutionary perspective, but also from a theological perspective Why doesn't God want us, dancing around campfires naked because that leads to, people's mental faculties being corrupted, being lowered, their inhibitions being lowered makes it makes it easier to implant false ideas into an [00:01:00] individual and can be used to manipulate and control individuals, by malevolent actors.

I feel like one of the reasons why I'm so antagonistic towards mysticism, if you study it after studying about cults, is you'll see that it is very similar to cults in, in what it does.

It's just a convergent cult. Within the various Abrahamic traditions or within any tradition. You're going to get mystics within Buddhist schools, within Hindi schools, you're always going to get the mystic cults.

And but when you first study cults, when you see how malevolent humans have developed and honed these traditions to manipulate people into believing falsehoods,

would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: Hey nerds, this is another one in based camps tracked series, meaning we are going to discuss religion. It's like our weird version of Bible study. So if you're here for the normal podcast, skip this one.

Don't worry. We'll be back next week. We do five episodes a week. Only one of them is this. So it was nice seeing you, but we'll see you again for the normal podcast shortly.

Malcolm Collins: And the title cards look very different, so it's easy to skip.

Simone Collins: So you so [00:02:00] Malcolm, you frame idolatry as this really important element of religion in a way that I've never really heard framed before in fictional or real depictions of religious practice or preaching. Before you dive into this tract, I'm just kind of curious why You think it's such a big deal

Malcolm Collins: because I think it's literally the single largest temptation for people who are trying to follow God in goodwill.

That's why, because, you know, something like murder or something like that. I mean, most humans can intuit that this is a bad thing that's going to lead to bad outcomes for themselves or for their community. If it's allowed, I think people can't intuit why idolatry is so dangerous to a community or to an individual.

That's pretty cool. And that's why it needs to be emphasized so strongly, but interestingly, as I pointed out in the, in the last track, a lot of people [00:03:00] misunderstand what is actually meant by idolatry, you know, they, they hear idolatry and they think it means, you know, literally the art itself, which has spiritual significance, which is a form of idolatry.

Or the statue itself that, but no, no, idolatry is looking for shortcuts to God through earthly things. So, or assigning spiritual significance to earthly things. So, you know, if a cartoonist is drawing a picture of Muhammad, for example, within this, the cartoonist hasn't actually committed idolatry because he doesn't assign any spiritual significance to that.

The individual, when they get mad at the cartoonist, And they assign spiritual significance to that. They have now committed idolatry because they've created an earthly intermediary for either side of the divine, whether it's, you know, believing in cursed places, like negative or positive, you know, signing a Koran and saying this Koran is sacred and you can't, you know, you, you need to have different special ways of disposing of it and everything like that.

You have now. created an earthly intermediary, a physical intermediary on this planet between you and God, [00:04:00] which is, you know, the same as like the, the nature worshiping pagans that where, where Judaism really cleaved, you know, the beginning of the Abrahamic faith from the religions around them, is it didn't worship God through earthly intermediaries, whether that was idols, whether that was gold or whether that was you know, Streams and waterfalls and, you know, butterflies and we're saying, no, no, you, you cannot worship the real God through earthly intermediaries.

And here we're going to get into why shortcuts to God. are so, so, so dangerous for religious systems from both a theological and secular perspective, which is what we always aim to do in these is explain why rules exist within them from both a secular evolutionary perspective, but also from a theological perspective and to reinforce the rules that I think that many of these systems have sometimes gone soft on over time either through cultural, you know, believing next to other cultural groups or, and you can be any of the, like, like what we're talking about here.

[00:05:00] You can be a Jew, you can be a Catholic, you can be a Muslim and you can be like, oh, this seems true. I will follow my religion. Was this monotheistic faith system, or I will follow my religion with. You know, one of the other systems, right? Which, which is really interesting when you have this diversity of conceptions of God was in.

These faith systems. And somebody's like, well, you know, he's Jewish and he's Jewish, or even ultra Orthodox Jewish. Like he's ultra Orthodox Jewish, but he basically worships a totally mystical God was in these three faith systems. And then he's Orthodox Jewish, but he worships the totally monotheistic God.

And he worships a totally polytheistic God, you know, with all of these, you know, you know, distinct cosmology and angels and everything like that. And these three individuals we would say are worshiping. three different entities. You know, if, if you you know, if I take some Native American religion or something like that, and I just replace all of the key entities in it with Yahweh and then I go through all of their practices.

I'm not worshiping God. I'm worshiping the Native American gods. I've just changed the names. You know, so, so this is [00:06:00] really important because. These other types of religious systems do not lead to, from a secular perspective it's important, you know, they do not lead to industry, they do not lead to philosophy, they do not lead to cultural flourishing.

Which, which we've seen when you know, these, these various systems have succumbed to this, whether, you know, we thought this was the Islamic empire, we saw this was the Christian systems, you know, during the dark ages. We've, we, we see this over and over again. And I, and I think we're beginning to see it again now as people succumb to various forms of idolatry.

All right, so, tract five, spiritualism is idolatry.

The last tract focused on the obvious dangers of idolatry, but the true danger of idolatry is much more existential.

The quest for idolatric Desires, to conceive of some aspect of God within this lower human mind, to sully God out of vain curiosity by summoning some sliver of him to the level of something that could be captured by our putrid and petty minds, leads even holy men directly into the servitude [00:07:00] of the basilisk, the great deceiver, Falsehood incarnate, Aharam, Aharamen, the devil.

The human mind is weak and easily tricked due to shortcuts that were taken in its evolution. This can be exploited by cult leaders to make people believe they have seen slivers of God. This can be done through food deprivation. Chanting phrases, unique postures for long periods, sleek deprivation, rhythmic dancing, crowds engaging in mindless behavior, stage hypnosis techniques, and ingesting hallucinogenic chemicals.

Given that this is the case, it is only natural that maliciously minded individuals who would use these tricks to dupe people into believing that they are an intermediary with God. A swami can use something as innocuous as yoga to turn a simple minded woman into his sex slave, all while she believes she is getting closer to the divine.

However, these failures of the human brain can have a much more nefarious effect. Because these exist as exploits [00:08:00] in all humans across all cultures, even well meaning Abrahamic ones, groups within those cultures, end up discovering them by accident, and then believe that they have found a path to God.

It's as if the Basilisk left stashes of drugs intermingled among the human soul, and any idiot can accidentally find them if they know where to look. Eve, we stamped out this idolatrous witchcraft entirely and burned all its practitioners. Some gornless idiot would accidentally discover these techniques again because they are part of the background nature of humanity.

And through that, a well meaning follower of God can accidentally lead people to become mindless slaves to the great deceiver. So here, you know, we're using idolatry as a, as a shortcut to God to warn against. tactics, which are very dangerous, you know, for two core reasons. One, they, they can be used by cults, you know, and I'm really into [00:09:00] cult psychology.

Like that is one of my core backgrounds. That's why I first engaged with religion was studying how cults work. Cause I couldn't understand how people came to believe things that were just like obviously insane. And you know, these are all techniques used by them, but I've also seen these techniques bubble up again within well meaning Abrahamic systems.

And like, of course they would like if they existed, the background part of humanity's nature, of course. Every now and then somebody is going to find out, Oh, it feels really good when I like spin around in circles over and over again. Therefore, that must be God that's giving me that information when, you know, a Satanist can use the same thing to, to get good feelings.

And we know from, you know, fMRIs of these things, you know, like a static dance, stuff like that they produce the same endogenous chemicals that often you're taking exogenously as a drug. Do you have any thoughts or? No,

Simone Collins: I've always been very wary of these things but I am curious to see what I learned from you with

Malcolm Collins: this.

All it takes for the basilisk to [00:10:00] slither into the mind of the faithful and turn God's loyalist follower into a puppet of sin is for him to forget, even for a moment, just how serious a transgression it is to attempt to trap an element of God within the mortal realm, or to pierce the veil of God's realm.

Fortunately, both of these things are impossible, but it is very easy to Trick the human brain into believing it has accomplished them. The moment an individual succumbs to the belief that there are shortcuts to attempt to commune with God, it becomes almost impossible to save them. The only path to God is logic and pragmatism.

All shortcuts lead one's soul to enslavement. So this is really important that I mentioned this here because this is the key to a lot of mystic traditions. You know, they say, oh you know, you do these behaviors and it's usually a very simple set of behaviors that fall into the set that I talked about before, like chanting simple phrases and stuff like that, that we know, you know, you can chant that some yoga guy could use this to Create sex slaves.

Like these are always used by cults because they're very [00:11:00] easy ways to create this illusion. Because they release endogenous chemicals that are similar to drugs in our brain of like, that you have found something special or supernatural.

Some great examples of well-known groups that use these techniques are groups like transcendental meditation or TM. Or the hair Christian. However, if you want to deep dive on house sort of yoga cults work, I would strongly suggest a YouTube video called I married a yoga guru con man. And. While you're watching this video look for techniques that the various yoga guru conman, who she meets throughout her journey use that you have seen used within your traditional religious system, because. The individuals using those techniques. I can be drawing you and their followers. Down pathways, which are not intended.

I mean, a person can use these brainwashing con man techniques under the guise of an Abrahamic tradition, just as much [00:12:00] is they can use them under one of these other traditions.

And I think what we're really trying to do with what we're building here. It's create an Abrahamic denomination that is much, much, much more resistant. Two maladaptive and malevolent cult-like techniques. Why is this important to do because these techniques given their efficiency and effectiveness will always creep back into systems. And be used by malevolent players.

A person being a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian doesn't protect them. From these techniques, as we can see from individuals who use them to deconvert people from these traditions. Why wouldn't they be useful among domino emanations within these traditions. which are leading people away from the righteous path. And that's regularly creep back into these Abrahamic face over time.

Malcolm Collins: And we know this illusion is very easy to create with things like hallucinogens, right?

You know, we know this from hallucinogens, like everyone here. sentience. It's like, Oh [00:13:00] man, I like touch the nature of reality. It's like, no, you, you did something that created that experience was in you, but it was a false experience. And as such, it is, it is, you know, as we say, the mystic elevates the states of corrupted, like corrupted mental states.

Well,

Simone Collins: also who's to say that being close to God feels like something ecstatic or really

Malcolm Collins: joyful. Oh, I'm almost certain it doesn't.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And, but I think that that's what people are drawn to. They, they. Are falling back on instincts that if it feels good, it is good. If it feels,

Malcolm Collins: you know, I think that there are moments where you can get close to God within our lives.

The closest you will ever be to God in terms of like feeling God in you is when you have set. Logical goals for yourself that you believe, you know, God has has laid out for you or that are in the best interest of moving humanity forwards. And you achieve those goals that feeling. That's not like, a [00:14:00] pointless feeling.

That's not a feeling that can be spammed. That's not a feeling, right? But that's it.

Simone Collins: It's a very unique feeling. It's a very contented feeling. It's a feeling of no, no FOMO, no insecurity, no no cognitive dissonance. Because you know what matters and what doesn't, but it isn't this feeling of joy or happiness or out of body experience that I think a lot of people have come to expect from and associate with.

Highly religious

Malcolm Collins: experiences. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually very interesting So the religious experience for I think the true monotheist actually feels very ordered very logical And and and and very, you know iterative like okay now it

Simone Collins: reminds me of those. Paintings maybe if I like Botticelli of the The virgin with the child where she's not like, ah, like, this is crazy.

She just looks like extremely calm and focused.

Malcolm Collins: Very important in what you're saying here. One of the core paths used by mystics, it's [00:15:00] important to guard against is this idea of pushing all thought from one's mind. You know, this is something that you see John of the Cross talk about.

If you're talking about the Catholic tradition, it's something you see Maimonides talk about. If you're talking about the Jewish tradition, it's something you see Buddhists often talk about. Pushing all thought, pushing all will, pushing all self out of, of one's mind. And you get nothing, you know, it's John of the Cross called it the nada.

And then that is where God comes in. But no, pushing all of this out of yourself is not where God comes in. God comes in through your industry, through achieving things that actually matter. And achieving these goals that actually matter. So I think you could overly focus on the absence of things, which you've been doing, which can lead individuals to think that well, if you get rid of everything else, all other emotions, then you have found a path to God.

And you made a joke about this was the Ron Swanson quote with the meditating.

Simone Collins: Yeah, there's there's a scene in which in Parks and Rec, in which one character who's like super new agey and healthy and. High effort [00:16:00] is attempting to recruit a very, we'll say like, politically conservative and anti government person to go to like yoga classes or something and meditate with him.

 You and I will embark on a quick session of heart rate meditation, focusing on conscious breathing and opening the heart chakra.

I'm not sure I'm interested in that. No, I am sure I am not interested in that. room and remain open of mind and of spirit. Now, quietly, sit behind me. And let's join breath. I'll stand.

All told, we were in there about six hours. And no, I was not meditating. I just stood there, quietly breathing. There were no thoughts in my head whatsoever. My mind was blank. I don't know what the hell these other crackpots are doing. Ron, you've radiated mindfulness. What were you thinking about? I wasn't thinking at all.

Incredible. Incredible. It takes a ton of work for me to get to that kind of a clear head space, I [00:17:00] know this crap is important to you, so I should come clean. I got nothing out of that experience at all.

Simone Collins: And I just love that scene so much because there are so many religions where people, like, They become so obsessed with pursuing the outcome or some kind of feeling or some kind of state.

And then, like, then there are the people who just do it.

Malcolm Collins: They have made, and this is the course in here, they have made pursuing a mental state the goal. Yeah. Which is

Simone Collins: The mental state is the byproduct of the correct

Malcolm Collins: mindset. Yeah and, and what they often do, which is a really common tactic within the mystic traditions, is they will act like this mental state, which is actually pretty easy to do, which I think is shown really well by that Parks and Rec clip, is a difficult thing that only, like, a true master can do.

And if you're not you know, high status within these communities, you'll be like, that's trivial to do. what you just told me to do. Look, I just did it. Done. And they're like, no, no, no. You clearly didn't do it. You know, they'll start gaslighting you because that's how they assert their status, which is always important within cult traditions.

Like you definitionally haven't done it [00:18:00] unless you, you, you've you know, invested a certain amount of time or a certain amount of energy into their, you know, basically you've paid them the right amount of money whether that money is in years of your life or is in you know, actual money where some traditions just be like, ah, you've paid enough money.

Now you're up a level. Okay. Now, now you can actually do it when it's something you could always do, you know, gatekeeping these sorts of mental states. But yeah, it's a pursual of a mental state as the goal rather than. You know, the mental state

Simone Collins: being a byproduct of successful pursuit

Malcolm Collins: of your values.

Yeah. Where that's the actual mental state where God is closest to you. So far as his values aren't self indulgent, which is the pursuing of mental states is always in definitionally self indulgent. Yeah. Some doubt me. They say no. These practices are sanctified and Abrahamic in nature. Be these individuals Sufis, Pop Kabbalists, or Christian mystics.

Evil does not tempt people by calling itself evil. It tempts people by calling itself good. God warned us about [00:19:00] idolatry before warning us about murder because we would find it so tempting. Not because it would be so obviously evil. I ask you, Whatever tree of mysticism tempts you, examine your religious history closely.

Did Jesus teach these practices? Did Moses teach these practices? Did Muhammad teach these practices? No, in every case it was a latter invention, a cancer that grows on the human soul. God would not need to keep sending prophets if we were able to just listen to his instructions the first time. Oh, but you heard your prophet secretly taught about these ideas, but just didn't make them public.

Imagine the basilisk wanted to deceive the followers of God. How would he do it? He would have deceivers whisper to the faithful that their prophets had secret teachings that gave them superhuman abilities and secret powers. Some would say, you don't understand. These practices are common among holy men in my community.

Do you have any idea [00:20:00] how offensive it is to say that these men are nothing but a witch cult? I do not write these words to cause offense, but because they are obviously true, . And I mean this, you know, this is a very offensive thing to say within many traditions that have bought into these mystical interpretations.

Oh yeah. But you know, and I think that that's really damaging, but I also think it's just patently apparent. You know, if something like this can be used by, you know, a, a yogi to turn women into his sex slaves, like very obviously it's not getting you closer to God. Okay. If it also gets you closer.

Closer to, you know, this, this random yogi and it's, it's, it's so tempting to different religions because it does create a feeling of profundity, you know, spinning in circles does create a feeling of profundity after a while. But like. I think it's pretty obvious that God didn't intend on us to get close to him by idly spinning in circles.

Or a static dance. And, you know, we see this. A static dance, you know, when they talk about like canine, really it's like naked people dancing around a fire [00:21:00] or something like that. You know, this was the pre Abrahamic religion. And yes, it can create these amazing feelings, but those feelings aren't gone.

And so then what are those feelings? What are you getting closer to? I mean, that's, but I'd also say you approach this from a completely secular standpoint. Why does it make sense to ban these types of ideas? Because they lead to self indulgent behavior. Which I love. God has communicated with us through a religion that should make total secular sense.

Why doesn't God want us to engage in like, like, live our lives for the achievement of specific mental states? It's because that leads to, you know, inefficacious idleness. Why doesn't God want us, you know, dancing around campfires naked most of the time? Because that leads to, like, people's mental faculties being corrupted, being lowered, their inhibitions being lowered makes it makes it easier to implant false ideas into an individual and can be used to manipulate and control individuals, you know, by malevolent actors.

Simone Collins: Though what I do find interesting is I cannot think of an instance in which Someone has explicitly said, doing [00:22:00] this thing is going to bring you closer to God. They're usually used more like these. Well,

Malcolm Collins: but where I see

Simone Collins: them is it's like, if you want to maybe level up within an organization or you're doing it because other people are doing it and they seem to be.

Really transported by it. And so you want to do it too, but I know

Malcolm Collins: I'm going to talk about this in a second, but you haven't engaged much with mystics, but they'll often treat this information as secret and they only convey it to you. Because if this was on the surface, often was in religions. Oh, you dance a statically to get closer to that.

Sounds stupid. No, you don't. It's a secret. It's like a mystery, right? You know, and this is how, you know, mystery cults probably work. In a historic context, but if you actually study them from an outside perspective, you'll see that all of the across all of these, these pathways you'll see very similar behaviors.

And, and what's even worse is when people begin to feel like the, the information they're gaining within these corrupted mental states as a higher order of information than the information they get through, you know, rigorous study which then leads [00:23:00] to, you know, corrupted religious teachings. Yeah, I

Simone Collins: just, I, I, I see it more as like.

And, and not officially condoned distraction that people get caught up with that end up playing games with social hierarchies, unless

Malcolm Collins: it's a core part of the church. Which is why you're not seeing how offensive what I'm saying is to people within these mystical traditions. I see. Certain types of pop Kabbalism, certain types of Sufism, they would hear this and say that you are directly calling our religion the worship of the devil.

And, and, and they see their religion as a core Abrahamic tradition. Hmm. So yeah. But, but what they end up doing, it's not that different than what you see in like the, the, the Theo Ethical Society, which is probably the worst of the Christian iterations of this which has grown really big. Their teachings happen.

They're now influencing some church doctrine and stuff like that. But we can get to this more conspiracy theory stuff. So it's just that you haven't engaged with it. But I promise it is common, and people can mention this in the comments, that this is stuff that they have seen people trying to [00:24:00] peddle, but people peddle it like drugs.

Interesting. You know, they're, Hey kid. I have a secret, like, you come with us, you come with the cool kids, and you can get access to the special information about God that the prophet actually taught in secret. Right, but it's like, of course, that's how the devil interacts with people. And I just love how silly it is.

Oh, it gives you, like, superpowers, basically. It gives you supernatural powers and it gives you a direct path to God. Like it's so like what a drug dealer would say, Hey kid, I got some supernatural powers. I'm peddling here. Hey kid, I got a shortcut to God. I'm peddling here. Like we should immediately recognize but people are brought into these movements in environments where it feels very holy and very important and very private and secret.

So they don't notice how obviously demonic and satanic they are. And, and you're not particularly interested in studying those types of traditions, so you don't notice this. But it's useful for our kids to have priming against this, because this is how groups will try to convert them. It's whizzies, and they need to know that this is, you know, just as dangerous as drugs.

And I would also warn people here that just because somebody can come up with an argument. That seems to [00:25:00] be biblically backed that some form of idolatry is okay, whether it's of the mystical Or using gold or idols as intermediaries for God in worshiping. That appears biblically backed. It doesn't mean there actually are arguments that are biblically backed. A person. Can you do a rough reading of the Bible to back just about any position, just because someone has done that doesn't mean a position is biblical. A great example of one of these SOFIC arguments that relies on you not having a lot of biblical knowledge is the argument of the bronze serpent., when the Jews were traveling from Egypt, Israel, some grew. Impatient. And spoke against God and Moses. About their lack of food and water.

And as a result, God sent venomous steaks among them. And many people were bitten and died. Moses prayed to God for a solution to this. And God gave him one, which was instructions on how to build a stick with a snake on it. Which people could look at. And it [00:26:00] would cure the venomous snakes that he had sent. No, it is very important that at no point in this story with this stick, Meant to be used as an intermediary for worship of God.

It was a tool. Just to be extra explicit about what said in the story here. The Lord said into Moses. Make a snake and put it on a pole. Anyone who has bitten can look at it and live. So Moses made a bronze snake and put it on a pole. Then when anyone who has bitten by the snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived. Nobody was worshiping it.

Nobody was attempting to see God through it. No one was using it as an earthly intermediary for God's greatness. Nobody was using it in religious rituals. It was a tool. It was a tool in the same way. God gave Noah instructions on how to build an arc. , and how do we know this? Because the Bible very, very clearly tells us in Kings that at later times, people had started to Include this Dick in religious rituals and use it as an [00:27:00] intermediary for God in their worship of him. And.

King has a Kaia of Judah. Then it has to have it destroyed because it was never, ever meant to be used as an intermediary for the worship of God.

So the, the broad snake story, while some people will use it to try to say that idolatry is okay, or that idol worship is okay. Or that using idols at the intermediary in the worship of God is okay. They're just lying to you about what the Bible says, because it clearly, at no point says that anyone was supposed to use this as an intermediary for worship. In fact specifically, how were they worshiping in a way that God hated so much? They were burning incense in front of it. So I ask you in your churches, in your temples, are there anythings that are being used at the intermediaries for God, that people are burning incense in front of. If God didn't want a stick that he explicitly used for miracles being used in this way. Does he want manmade art being used in this way. Does he want gold being used in this way?

It was a [00:28:00] tool. And God doesn't mind us using tools. That we develop with his insight. , I E the intelligence he has granted us. That is one of the ways he performs his miracles within our world. Which is one of the things we always talk about when people are like, oh my God, how could you allow medical technology to fave that child?

And it's like, no, that's how God works. Okay. He gives us the insight. To build things that can help people when they're, for example, bitten by snakes, but we are not supposed to worship this medical technology. And it's a final note here. If there's any lingering thoughts in your head of will, maybe God mint this snake to be an intermediary for the worship of him. Keep in mind what you're saying here. God made it as snake, a snake to teach us. That when you worship A being through things like this. You are worshiping Satan. Who is represented by a snake.

God is never represented by a snake. When you worship God. Through earthly intermediaries that were made by man. You are [00:29:00] directly worshiping the serpent.

Malcolm Collins: But I don't come to you with idle claims. I can prove to you that these teachings come straight from the basilisk, the suppressor of God's greatest gifts, logic and mental discipline. Open a book on how cults brainwash people, or study how the insidious corrupted yogis create their slaves. A practice when performed by manipulative individuals in the name of Satan or personal self indulgent, one that promotes the exact same results in those circumstances, is not giving you a vision of God just because you replaced some cryptic.

pagan chant with a Christian one. The experience you have is the exact same experience the yogi used to turn that gauntless woman into his sex slave. Fortunately, God marks these idolatrous practices clearly, if a practice contains any one of the following, it is dangerous witchcraft, food, slush, sleep.

deprivation, chanting phrases, unique postures for long periods, rhythmic dancing, crowds [00:30:00] engaging in mindless behavior, stage hypnosis techniques, and ingesting hallucinogenic chemicals. Importantly, anyone who has used these techniques to give others quote unquote visions of God, and use these visions to affirm their position as intermediaries of God's will on earth, is an agent of the Basilisk.

These individuals are the closest thing you will ever encounter to a demon wearing human skin.

And you know, when I, I talked about like the golden cow in the previous track and, and God using sort of canine religions, just, you know, the, the calf, right? Like the cow is a ball. Let's see animal. That's most associated with ball. So by calling it a golden calf, what they're saying is it's like a diminutive of ball.

They are saying that this other way of worship is diminutive, but they are referencing these canine religious practices. And You know, and you would see aesthetic dance in these practices and stuff like that. And you see this within classic witchcraft or classic Satanism, you know, people worshipping God through the human body, through, you know, nudity and aesthetic dance and stuff like that.

And then people think, [00:31:00] well, I have put you know, a veneer of Abrahamism on top of it, and now it is no longer dangerous. Now this practice is no longer bad, and that's just not how it works. We'll get to that in a second.

Some say, but when my community practices these techniques, they show more fervor. I hear, when we start worshipping demons, the impact on us is more immediate and powerful. And it's like, well, yeah, obviously, demon cultists are always going to be a fanatic lot.

Only a force field of zealous mental discipline and logic can protect one's soul from demonic incursion during worship. The path to God is always going to shed more of your followers than the path to the profane, because it is intrinsically harder and more trying. It is meant to be. The more, the most charitable I am able to be is to say that maybe some form of this kind of mystical demon worship was needed to get your community through a trying time.

I don't really believe that. I'm just saying it to be [00:32:00] diplomatic. Abrahamism represented a turning away from the paths of the simple minded forest mystic who saw the divine in all sorts of innate objects and in nature. God is man's potentiality. Not nature or inanimate objects. When you sense the divine in those things, you are sensing the divine yourself flowing out from you, being sapped from you and replaced with the foul, four footed intuitions of our ape like ancestors.

That's a fun way of putting it. Yeah. And I, and I really, you know, this is a thing where people are like, well, don't you believe that God reveals himself sort of through God's hand? Like we mentioned that like the invisible hand of God, like if a tradition is outcompeting other traditions, it must be true.

And it's like, kind of, if a tradition is outcompeting other traditions and still being efficacious, i. e. still producing a great amount of industry, still producing a great amount of economic dynamism, a great amount of philosophy, a great amount of super advanced art, a great amount of technological [00:33:00] advancement.

Yeah. Yes, the problem is that mysticism can outspread the monotheistic traditions, but it turns its individuals into, well, mindless witch cults, generally and, and this is why concepts like, you know, witchcraft are important as applied to sorcerers and stuff like that, because the way that these traditions capture people, it's a, it gives them either shortcuts to God, shortcuts to the supernatural realm, or Or feelings of like power fantasies, like they play into power fantasies and when you immediately know to associate all of that stuff with witchcraft, you know, to a shoe those things.

Right? But of course that can be, you know, taken to an extreme where you begin to apply it to childlike fantasies for no children make believe. That's fine, but your holy figure shouldn't be playing make believe, okay? That's a problem, okay?

God is man's potentiality and man's potentiality is infinite. One day man will be able to construct a planet [00:34:00] with an ecosystem as diverse as Earth's with less effort than snapping a finger. And diminish it with a flick of the wrist. It is our manifest destiny, not just to expand across reality, but to grab reality by the neck and force it to submit to us.

To break reality and reshape it to our wills. When you are tricked into worshipping God through an intermediary as limited as bugs, chickens, and waterfalls, you pervert his grandeur.

God can be found in logic? Science, a deeper understanding of the mechanisms of the physical world, industry, and productivity. But to mediate God through things that do not lead to him, to things that man has not created, you will find only temptation and a pathway to mental corruption. There is no such thing as quote unquote good spiritualism.

Spiritualism and mysticism are the corporeal manifestations of evil and human arrogance. Religion is the rules that God has set out for us to keep us on the righteous [00:35:00] path towards him. The long, true path to God requires a disciplined mind, austerity, and industry. Spiritualism are the shortcuts that make you feel closer to God or an element of the divine while moving you further from God's grace.

There are no shortcuts to God or good. Just as narcotics are shortcuts to happiness, but no real or enduring happiness can come from them, mysticism is a shortcut to God. Those who attempt to peddle mysticism within a community of God should be seen with the same combination of derision and pity as your local crack dealer.

There is but a difference in degree between the spiritualist and the junkies. The junkie found addictive chemicals on the streets, while the spiritualist stumbled upon a way to produce them endogenously. Ironically, the corrupting chemicals the junkie injects in their veins are often the same chemicals endogenously released by quote unquote spiritualist practices.

And we can see this in like fMRIs and stuff like that. Very similar to normal pathways. Watch the [00:36:00] people who spend their whole lives in the pursuit of these spiritual hits. They almost Universally end up in the same place as drug addicts do. They end up disheveled, unkempt, blubbering, idiots with childish understandings of the world.

 Any kid can see this when he meets them. This is why you should avoid spiritualism just as artily as you avoid drugs.

Simone Collins: I don't know. My mind just keeps coming back to this where like the people that I know and knew who were more on the mystical end of the spectrum. really didn't seem to be trying to get close to God. They did it because for them, it felt good and it was fun. Like people got into mysticism for the same reason that people get into like following certain bands and being really into music or because you grew up in the urban Cruz life or something.

You know what I mean?

Malcolm Collins: So you grew up in the urban monoculture. In the urban monoculture, what is the highest order of good? It is positive emotional states. [00:37:00] That is their god. So, when they

Simone Collins: are Oh, so this is just along with

Malcolm Collins: other things. They are going to their god, right? When a conservative Jew gets duped by one of the mystical traditions, they think, oh, I'm going to, you know, the Jewish god.

When a, when a you know, a a Catholic preacher gets duped by one of the mystical traditions. They think, oh, I'm going to the Catholic God, right? Individuals who are duped by the mystical traditions always think that they are going to sort of the thing that they worship. And you just grew up in an environment where the thing that people worshiped was the urban monoculture.

So you didn't really know that many conservative religious mystics. I don't think that you're describing, you're not describing like conservative Muslim or conservative Jewish or conservative Catholic. That's true. I don't

Simone Collins: know. I don't think I've ever really met a conservative

Malcolm Collins: religious mystic. Okay, they're very common.

I think it's just that you don't know a lot of conservative religious individuals or that when you meet the mystics, you know, you are repellent to them. You know, some people say they send mystics to our videos and they find them repellent. It's like, yeah, it's like sending a Jewish person to an anti [00:38:00] semitic video.

I mean, we are. While we promote the Abrahamic face we are openly hostile to all mystical interpretations of those face. That it is just New Ageism, and that's why New Ageism, you know, promotes, you know, this, this self affirmment, which is very interesting that they use the mystical traditions that you see within these other traditions as shortcuts to God, as shortcuts to self acceptance and self deification.

Deification in the moment, you know, instead of intergenerational improvement.

We have a lot of friends who fall into the mystic traditions. And I keep having these moments where I'm like, are we being too hard on the mystical traditions in terms of the system of faith that we are building from our kids and our interpretations of the Abrahamic scriptures? And then something will happen.

Like what happened last week with, you know, Ruby ARD, who I consider a very smart person and a good friend. , released the video. Did the CIA , discover the spirit realm? And I'm like, oh, even two very smart, logically ordered mind. These traditions can be incredibly [00:39:00] tempting. And very convincing. And by prayeth the normal incredulity and red flags we should have around them. Eve young smart people like him can find them tempting. And convincing then my kids might as well, and I cannot. Be light on them in the system. I am building to protect my kids.

Malcolm Collins: Another thing I'd say here, which is interesting was in this, this sort of teaching is it is very clear that like the human body. Nature stuff like that. These are not passed to God within this system. The things that humans assign status to is not a pass to God was in this system.

However, there is a manifestation of God was in our reality. And that is the labor of like the complicated labor of men that moves society forwards. So, in a way, you know, something as mundane as like a road is like an actual manifestation of God. A factory that produces food that can last a long time is an actual manifestation of God within this earthly realm because it was the labor of man to create [00:40:00] something that benefits and moves humanity forwards and towards God's plan for man.

So the, the, the productive factory, the productive AI model all of these are paths insofar as the AI model is actually productive. Now, it doesn't mean that all labor, like you can create something like one of these woke AI models or like a. Indolent video game. And like, that's not it. If it doesn't help expand human thought or anything like that, if it's just like an addictive thing, then it's just like any other drug.

Right. But this isn't to say that there is nothing was in our world that isn't a manifestation. It is, it is your labor insofar as it benefits and moves forwards and uplifts your fellow man. Right. Any other thoughts there or one thing I might do before another video with you is have you watched some videos on like actual Abrahamic spiritualism because it's just clear to me that you've really never engaged with it.

Because you don't seem to know, like, even that it exists. But when this video is going to be incredibly pertinent to many of our watchers, we're like, Oh, I've seen people talk about these, these [00:41:00] sorts of practices as like secret ultra religious orders is like the way it's often framed.

Simone Collins: I will.

Represent the part of our audience ignorant to that and ask the dumb

Malcolm Collins: questions. Yeah. And it's something that I'd be into cause I'm a religious nerd. So I dig in through a lot of these religious communities, you know, starting with cults for me, but then I started digging in to religious orders within the Abrahamic system.

And I was like, ah, that's a, that's a cult. I have seen all of these strategies before. That's a cult.

Simone Collins: And I would argue that most people on YouTube are probably more from the urban monoculture and less familiar with obscure mystic traditions or even religious

Malcolm Collins: conservatism. It matters in terms of how we teach our kids, you know, even from a secular perspective, because people will use these traditions to try to, you know, get them to live these indolent lives, whether they're doing it for the urban Mongol culture, whether they're using these systems for self affirmation or they're using these systems as shortcuts

Simone Collins: to God.

Well, I appreciate that. I mean, I appreciate that to our kids. We're not saying. Oh, it's conservative. Therefore, it's good. Or, oh, it's progressive. Therefore, it's bad. We're [00:42:00] saying, look at what they're doing. What are they doing? And what are the outcomes and what are they achieving? And yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: what happens to communities?

Like, you know, what happens after something like you get an outbreak, the, the, the, like the one that Al Ghazali caused, which was, you know, the Sufism on the Muslim community, how did they've gotten? And again, when we say God, we mean like, How, how did the community react to that? Like God removed his favor from them.

Now, you can either say this is because mystical systems don't work or because God was actively angry with them. It doesn't matter. But what did end up happening is their community lost all of its great art, all of its great scientists, all of its great industry. And so somebody is like, you know, when they talk about a thing, just spreading as being proof of it, no, it must spread and also lead to efficacy.

You know, these mystical pathway spread, but they ate the industry. They ate the souls of, of, of a lot of the Muslim community from our perspective. And that, that makes them very dangerous. And just because they wear, you know, wolf in sheep's clothing or, or, or we would call it a billy suit from like adventure time.

Hurry!

Finn, stop! That's not [00:43:00] Billy, it's the Lich! Lich! You, you mess Billy up. You just want to mess me all up. Mess everyone up. You tricked me! I can make you live forever. Anything you want.

Malcolm Collins: You know, a demon can wear the skin of a hero that he's killed. That does not make him that hero. In fact, it makes him more gruesome than even the mystics who, who come out and say right away, well, I'm a witch. Or I'm a whatever. You know, some ask me, Malcolm. If you are creating a religion and know about all these hacks that can be used to convince people that they have seen visions of God, why don't you use them to increase the speed that your beliefs spread and augment your claim to authority slash access to knowledge?

First, I am trying to find the truce, not just a quote unquote religion. Second, this is not a religion for all men but for the elect. We have no use for the desiccated remains of the spiritualist [00:44:00] junkie soul. If crack is being distributed from the pulpits to a crowd of thousands, the one individual willing to stand up and condemn the pastor has more value to us than every other human in that room combined.

When we look at the Physical manifestation of men, they look about equal, but human souls differ in their radiance by orders of magnitude. One man can burn brighter than an entire country of their compatriots. It is in one's willingness to stand up for logical, pragmatic truth against the sea of social conformity, corrupted traditions, and threat of .

Ostracism that allows one to show the true depths of their humanity. And I think this is true. Like a lot of people are like, how dare you say that humans aren't equal? And it's like, are you really saying that the humans who like were the guards at Auschwitz are the same in terms of the radiance of their soul as the humans who gave up everything to [00:45:00] save as many Jews as possible?

Are you really saying that? Are you really saying that the families who went along with you know the confederacy and, and trying to preserve the institution of slavery, that they really were the same and they are really the same level of humanity as the individuals who gave up everything to fight against that and, and died lives ostracized?

By their communities for doing that. I just, I just can't see that. And this is something that I constantly reiterate throughout the tracks is this image sort of like a motif throughout them of everybody's going along with something. And then there's 1 individual who stands out against it. That individual is the individual we want.

They are more valuable to us than everyone else in that crowd combined. We are trying to cultivate a culture of rebelliousness. But do you want to go further on any of this or? No, I'm with you. When I also think this idea of like, why don't you use this to hack people? Like if I spent my entire childhood studying how cults brainwash people, and then I literally try to create a frame, a belief system that [00:46:00] inverts every one of those systems.

It takes every one of those systems. It could be used to hack someone's brain. And it says. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, because I'm not creating this faith system to like brainwash people or create sex slaves or like get them to give me money. I'm creating the system to protect my kids from a level in actors.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And there are people who create religions to grow or to make money. And there are people who create religions. Well, I don't, I don't, I can't say I know of anyone who's created a religion to increase the fitness of people they care

Malcolm Collins: about, but Well, I also create this because I think it's true. Like, I'm thinking, because, like, what is good for my kids?

Well, it's whatever is best for man, right? And I think that that's what God would give us, and I actually think that that's why, when I have an idea, like, when I'm like This is what's best for man. And then you're like, well, this lay reading of like the Christian Bible says that like, God didn't want us to know good from evil.

And I'm like, that clearly must be wrong. And then I go and I read and it is wrong. And that's what leads me to believe that these texts are true or have some level of divine [00:47:00] inspiration. Because when I have an intuition. That goes against what is commonly practiced within the, you know, Christian or Jewish or Muslim tradition.

And then I go back to the actual text and I'll read that the text align with my intuition around what's in the best interest for my kids. And the practice is, is some form of corruption that I can often trace to you know, either cultural contamination from nearby neighbors or like mystic teachings or something like that.

Hmm. Or just people not really reading thoughtfully what's actually written in the book. And if you want to read the Good and Even thing, you can see our video on the Garden of Eden story and, and, and I think a more accurate reading of what's being said in it. Through the cultivation of our own spirit under God's protective light of logic, mental discipline, pragmatism, protecting it from the desiccating touch of spiritualism, mysticism, and wishful thinking.

All men have the capacity to uplift themselves. A strict, but always self imposed, Prohibition against idolatry and [00:48:00] spiritualism are critical in any religious system that is not going to be hijacked by simple brain hacks. They increase the mental health of the system's followers, keep them focused on efficacious action, as opposed to pointless self indulgent side quests, and perhaps most importantly, they prevent followers from falling prey to spiritualist grifters.

Why don't we just go back to one of the traditional Abrahamic denominations? Why start a new denomination for our family? This is one of many examples. When I look at the denominations that exist, many, which claim to be conservative, have fallen to plagues of occultic yogis and opulent. However, this does not mean that we should turn and hide from the knowledge of these practices.

Instead, I would encourage everyone to study mystical traditions. Knowledge, no matter how corrupt, will always strengthen the pure and braced of soul. The witch cults often use mystery and secrecy to build false credibility.

Secrets are [00:49:00] hoarded because of exposed to the light in full, they would desiccate. If someone not already brainwashed read them, they would sound silly. The more, you know about them, the more you teach your kids about them. The more protected from them. They are.

Malcolm Collins: And this is also, you know, we also take this approach to like human sexuality and many other areas when we're going into this stuff. As such, it is commanded that every individual on the path of righteousness should endeavor to build a deep knowledge of human psychology, a deep knowledge of techniques that can be used to recruit people, a deep knowledge of all the techniques that can be used to create illusions of the divine, e.

g. stage hypnotism, you should have a knowledge , of your chosen communities, current mystical traditions that rivals their most corrupted witch kings, which is to say the chief mystic in your community, you should know more about mysticism than he does when he comes to you, you should be able to school him on his own mystical traditions, not shirk from this knowledge

No, you might think, how could I possibly do that? How could I possibly know more than the [00:50:00] person who is the most dedicated of all mystics within his community? It's actually not as hard as you would think, because within mystical traditions, a lot of time is wasted on ineffective things and because the status hierarchy was animistic community. Is not determined by knowledge or understanding of the history of the mystical tradition or the specifics of the script, but by, well, basically the mystical con game. Which means that people can rise to power within the communities who actually do not have that much book learning of the subject.

Malcolm Collins: when I say your own communities, remember, we say within this denomination, you should primarily approach it From one of the traditional frameworks, whether it's Catholicism, orthodoxy, you know, Protestantism, Judaism, Islam, et cetera.

Simone Collins: That seems counterintuitive to me because what I hear often is that people who study mysticism then get super caught up in it

Malcolm Collins: and. I think you can study it like a defense against the dark arts, like, like defense against witchcraft. I was, I, I feel like one of the reasons why I'm so [00:51:00] resistant and antagonistic towards mysticism, especially if you study it after studying about cults, is you'll see that it is very similar to cults in, in what it does.

It's just a convergent cult. It's a convergent cult because it evolves naturally because it's sort of like, carved in the genetic scars of our mind within the various Abrahamic traditions or within any tradition. You're going to get mystics within Buddhist schools, within Hindi schools, you're always going to get the mystic cults.

And but when you first study cults, when you see how malevolent humans have developed and honed these traditions to manipulate people into believing falsehoods, you can see that, well, if these tools existed under my, under the human mind. That they would be things that can be captured and elevated accidentally by even well meaning individuals.

But then those individuals can lead groups to the deceiver. And I think that, like, for me, one of the things that makes mystical traditions look the most ridiculous is that I have studied them without them being drip fed to me in this drip of secrecy. For mystic traditions to really work, for them to capture individuals, they often [00:52:00] need to be drip fed with, like, rituals initiation.

And a degree of secrecy and status if you study them externally and from a position of derision, they immediately just look like um, and it does a lot to protect an individual. And here was the last line I had written here, a knowledge of both the real history of that communities, mystical traditions, and the narrative of those traditions histories taught by the witch kings.

And by this, what I mean is, is if you study the history of these mystical traditions all mystical traditions always say. We're super ancient. We've always been here. Because, you know, they, they tried to read into antiquity to sort of claim, like, and you look at, like, the Druids, like, you look at, like, the New Age movement, right?

Like, they're like the modern Druids have no connection to, like, ancient Druidic practices. They just are, like, the modern, modern, Pagan movement in the U. S. You know, they just pick these ideas up from intuition really like, like the, they're, it's more like ideas they got from Lord of the Rings or something like that, about what people used to believe and fantasy books than like actual [00:53:00] ancient religions.

And so this is why it's important to actually know about ancient religion so that when a mystic comes to you and says that this belief has antiquity, you can say, no, I'm actually very familiar with the evolution of this belief system and it doesn't have antiquity or they say, well, this belief system, well, you know, was taught by.

Moses, right? Secretly, to a small group of people, or it was taught by Muhammad, secretly to a small group of people. And you're like no, actually it didn't even come from your cultural group. I, I can spot very clearly, you know, this was a widely held belief. So you look at something like a Jewish mysticism, like a lot of it is actually adopted from Sufism.

I can be like, actually I can see the individuals who first injected your community with these. They were living alongside Sufis, they engaged heavily with Sufis, and these ideas look exactly like Sufism. This is, this is just a Jewish coding on Sufism, this is, this is no degree of real antiquity to it.

Which is actually interesting, you know, with a lot of these mystical traditions, they're usually quite young. Which is another thing is they'll claim to have antiquity. We look even at something like Kabbalism was in Judaism. You know, these books [00:54:00] were collected a thousand years ago. You know,

Simone Collins: are you also saying that, like, these are pretty fleeting and self extinguishing.

Are there mystic traditions that are mystical traditions that have lasted for a very long time? Oh,

Malcolm Collins: mystical traditions always last for a long time, right? Like they'll come up again. Like, even if you stamp them out, they will come back. You're saying they

Simone Collins: come up again. But are you saying, like, that there's, A positive, very longstanding, contiguous, mystic

Malcolm Collins: tradition only when they are held only for leaders in a community, which can happen.

So, 1 way that people engage with mystical traditions is they'll say, well, only the most learned individuals in our community can engage with these traditions. And that typically allows. the mystical traditions to not like eat the entire community which is fine. They just eats the best and brightest of the community, which does still hinder the community.

And it's not a useful thing to have, but it allows the community to survive for a long time intergenerationally. Typically when a mystical tradition takes over a community the community will exist, but they'll typically descend to, [00:55:00] you know, more, I guess you would call it. Colloquially barbaric lifestyle, you know, they'll begin to disengage from technology or not have the capacity to fully engage with technology and industry in the way that the monotheistic traditions do.

And so you begin to see a collapse, but in a way, all mystical traditions will always have a claim to a level of antiquity because they really. Because humanity keeps coming back to them, if I study the very, very ancient mystical traditions, like if I go to, like, early Mesopotamia and I look up their religious practices, they will look like the modern often, even sometimes within Abrahamic communities, mystical traditions.

For this reason when I say a lot of the mystic traditions that have begun to invade, , Abrahamic faith. Are actually fairly modern. I am. In fact taking the more charitable interpretation. Because of, they actually were traditions that were practiced in secret for a long time alongside these Abrahamic phase.

First you have to ask why was it kept secret for so long? And I would [00:56:00] argue. Well it's because it was something that the Abrahamic face would have recognized as anti Abrahamic. either. One of the old polytheistic traditions that lived alongside Abraham ism, or more specifically just Canaanite worship practices. , that were practiced in secret and never fully stamped out.

And in which case, you know, we are seeing that they are more literally worshiping the devil or worshiping the deceiver or untruth incarnate. When they worshiped mystical traditions. so we. Choose to take the more charitable approach, which just to say, no, this is the convergent evolution of ideology and a fairly recent one. Claiming that these beliefs actually have antiquity does not bolster these beliefs because the belief systems that they are most common to an antiquity are not Abrahamic in nature.

Malcolm Collins: And, and that's because of convergent evolution. Because these stacks of drugs that can be sort of elucidated by specific behavioral subsets that exist, Sort of stashed within all human [00:57:00] brains the behavioral sets which release them. And when you release these drugs, they create experiences. We call it like a ghost train ride when you are by the way, what I mean is it's like an on rails experience that feels very real to an individual.

So. When an individual, you know, takes hallucinogens, and this is well studied, you know, there's a number of typical, like, revelations that they have, like the interconnectedness of all things. And this revelation is also had within these mystical traditions, the interconnectedness of all things, and it's like, no, this is just because this is the ghost train ride that you're on.

Ooh, spooky ghost, you know, interconnectedness of all things that you see that pops out for everyone. But it's, it's not real, you know, another thing that you'll see. Within many of these traditions, because you also see this with the belief in like little gnomes that live behind the nature of reality, like, I don't think that most sane people actually think little gnomes exist, but this whole unity of all things, it feels very good.

It feels very nice to people. And it feels with the value systems that are promoted by secular culture because they are the value [00:58:00] systems promoted by secular culture. You know, it is a pass of the basilisk, right? Like this idea of erasure of all human diversity, erasure of all the things that make the various traditions different and unique in the favor of one true tradition, which is something that we believe in ardently fighting against.

While we have our own belief about what is true, we would do everything we can to protect other paths to truth, even if we see them as corrupted when contrasted with our path. And it's the same with the way we relate to the basilisks, you know, I call these individuals, you know, the witch kings because witches is what they are, what is a witch if not a sorcerer, if not an individual who's saying I have these practices that can make you super powerful, that can give you supernatural powers, that can give you shortcuts to find in supernatural realms, that is what witchcraft is in all ways and historically. But You know, and there's the problem of, well, then people want to go out and, like, kill witches or something, which is also really bad. You know, as we always say in all of our things, you know, the servants of the basilisk are serving God's will.

When you remove temptation from man, when you remove the temptation of mysticism from man, you are Directly asking, [00:59:00] acting against God, he is using these practices to test both individual men, but also mankind as a species and through testing these individuals through removing him from the groups that are among the elect and that are efficacious and that do move, move things forwards.

You are allowing those individuals to begin to pollute the communities of the elect mystical teachings, which ends up bringing those communities low. Because it is very hard to resist these teachings. I mean, they are very appealing and it's why God warns us against them so ardently in this prohibition against idolatry.

But did you have any thoughts on this or like how you would engage with this as our kids or are you okay with this naming of witches, like what the, the the mystical arts or, or sorcery and stuff like that as being a form of witchcraft?

Simone Collins: Well, there's a backfire potential with Making everyone, anyone seem like dangerous or evil, but I do [01:00:00] like the idea of especially saying, you know, these people are doing something that can be very harmful.

Our job is not to attack or stop or otherwise harm them. Even if that is what is happening.

This is the second order, negative effect from demonizing specific groups that wasn't captured here. But I want to highlight, which is when you demonize a group, you create a pathway for deconversion of your members by members of that group. Now this can seem pretty counterintuitive. So let me explain how this works. Suppose you are a Christian parent and you really don't want your kids to. Get caught up in the trans movement.

And so you demonize trans individuals as like these horrible, horrible people who are just all predators and want to hurt your kids. And then your kids for the first time meet one of these individuals in this person doesn't feel like that to them. They feel like a nice person who cares about them. And if they were very human and has all their own problems and really only wants what's best for them. , from their perspective and because this is so in [01:01:00] Congress was what you taught them about that community. Now they dismiss all of your other teachings and warnings about that community. , because the very first and most fundamental thing you taught them about this community was untrue that this community is in some way, like demonic or genuinely evil instead of just misguided or have different belief systems in you about what the best approach to specific things is in life.

And, and for that reason, when we're approaching mysticism,

Well, we can say that we think it's very bad in our kids should avoid it. The people who practice it are not bad. They're just people like you and me with different hypotheses about reality.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I think so. I think that you, you're absolutely correct to, to, well, I think to say to an individual, an individual who attacks or impedes a servant of the basilisk, a preacher of the basilisk, right, a proselytizer of the basilisk, does more to serve true evil and, and does more to directly oppose God's will than the servant of the basilisk is doing.

Because that [01:02:00] individual is providing an important service to our species and to other men, which is temptation. God wouldn't allow temptation if it was bad for us. And it should be obviously good that it is good for us. Good for the species more broadly and good for individuals who steal themselves against.

And so I'd say that an individual, like if you're hunting for anyone, hunt for the individuals who claim to be followers of our system and try to impede the preacher through the basilisk. Because those individuals are truly. enemies in rebellion to God. When we say, you know, hunt heresy, which I do think is a thing that can build fervor in an individual, you are hunting for heresy within yourself and within institutions.

That heresy is the inefficiency of institutions that you have influence over. It is not human beings because it is never heresy. Heresy, true heresy for another individual, an individual of a different face to be providing temptation to the elect. What you were supposed to do is guard your kids against this, but know that these people are [01:03:00] not their enemies.

They are serving God in their own way and in a way that shows an even higher form of martyrdom than the elect are really capable of because they have thrown away their lives. And their legacy that will not be written into the human blockchain. It is a negative effect. Whereas the elect have a positive, when I say a negative effect, they too are cutting art for God.

It's just that they are the, the Looney Tunes character selling the branch that they're further out on that they are creating a, a negative imprint in the art. Whereas the elector are creating a positive imprint in the art. But you, you are silencing God if you in any way. Attack or treat these individuals with any amount of enmity, just guard yourself against their messages and guard your children against their messages because they are dangerous and they do lead to, you know, really bad outcomes.

And this is why I think for our kids, you know, within the school system we've built one of the things that we include is, is learning about lots of different types of cults. And we even include this within the Christian part of [01:04:00] the tree. Like we have a button you can press it removes anything non Christian, but I include.

Like learning about different cults within the Christian part of the tree. But I think that that's the best defense against those cults coming and deconverting these people because they use these sorts of secret knowledge. Like what's the best way to prevent somebody from joining Scientology? You just tell them the whole thing up front and they're like, well, that's dumb.

You know, it's the truth for all of these, you know, the mystery cults have existed for a long time.

Simone Collins: That's a, a really good point. I think the key is to do it in an unromantic fashion and without lots of sensationaliz Sorry. Without lots of sensationalization. And without demonizing the, the party whose values you do not support.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and I think that this is also what we do with things like sexuality. Right. Like I do not think that like rampant promiscuous sexuality is a good thing for an individual. And yet we engage with it's funny. People see us. They're like, how can you go about and engage with you know, people who have [01:05:00] sex for money like Aayla, right?

Like on this show, how can you, how can you engage with them with a level of, of, of, of friendship? That's not the type of thing Jesus would do. And then they're like, Oh, s**t. Sorry. I was thinking of the Jesus like this high and mighty character. I learned about from from the corruption that the actual character of Jesus, of course, that's the type of thing that the actual character of Jesus would do to engage with these individuals and help them try to earn, you know, income streams outside of doing this.

They did it. No one is above. And this is actually a really important thing when Jesus says that anyone can be saved, right? And this is another thing that people really get wrong. They think the anyone can be saved line means they can just act like a sinner their entire life. And then on their deathbed confess and all of a sudden everything's forgiven.

No, what is meant by this is your past sins don't matter in terms of judging your future actions because the actions that a person who converted when they were five They're Are not going to be any [01:06:00] different from the actions of a person who converted yesterday dwelling on the past doesn't help you.

Those things are done overindulging and that doesn't help you, but you can always move forwards towards the path of righteousness. And so dwelling on that past is, is negative. Right? But you're still, those things are still encoded in the human blockchain, you know, you're still responsible for them. And because the, the other systems doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Somebody was like, well, how do you get God to forgive you within your system? And I'm like, I don't believe that God is the type of entity that needs to forgive humans. Like, he's so far beyond petty concepts like forgiveness. There, there is something deeper being conveyed in words that to humans sound like forgiveness.

Because we can't conceive of them. What he means is don't focus on the past. It's not relevant anymore. Focus on what's going forwards. You are the same as anyone else who's converted from that moment onwards. You are the same status, everything like that. And but this is also why, through people like Ayla, we engage with knowledge about human sexuality, but we approach it, if people have read The Pragmatist's Guide to [01:07:00] Sexuality, pretty dryly.

With an amount of levity, but not with an amount of reverence. Right? Because that's how you protect against The dangers and temptations of sexuality. And it's the same with mysticism. And so we, I have like really close mystic friends that I see was the same amount of, of genuine friendship and, and genuine inter human emotional connection as people see between me and someone like Ayla, even though, you know, I wouldn't want that lifestyle for my kids that's what I mean.

It is those individuals who, who take paths that might be the most different to you, that you are commanded. to see and interact with and genuinely try to understand with the most love because when you understand them, you understand the real temptation of these pathways. And, and when you demonize them, you are incapable of seeing, you know, you're just like, when you see the witches as just witches, right?

When you see them as being just individuals who are like evil, ha ha ha, instead of as humans who are intelligent and well meaning and [01:08:00] Trying their best like everyone else in the world, you don't fully take time to study and understand their perspective, which makes yourself especially vulnerable to it.

And your children especially vulnerable to it. And this is what I see often with things like you know, rapid onset, like trans and stuff like that. I think a lot of And this is

Simone Collins: why we always say that it's really important not to shelter, but, but to annotate.

Malcolm Collins: Annotate. Yeah. Teach your kids about these communities that are going to predate upon your community.

But, but, but do not demonize them because if you demonize them as being somehow other than us, as being people who succumb to things that we, like good people. Don't have to worry about succumbing to then people begin to contextualize themselves as they succumb to these things. Well, I can't. Be succumbing to something evil because I'm a good person.

And when you define them as bad, well, then they're saying, well, I'm a good person. I know I'm a good person. So whatever I'm succumbing to isn't evil and it makes them extremely [01:09:00] susceptible to them.

Any final thoughts, Simone?

Simone Collins: No. I'm glad that we're not sheltering our kids. I also, I mean. You know, I love having the backup. If we are wrong, they'll find out because we will make sure that they get access to all the information and can make a decision for themselves in the

Malcolm Collins: end. Yeah, they will. And I think that this is what the strong traditions are going to do and the strong religious practices are going to do in the age of the internet.

One of the reasons why so many systems are failing is because they tried to maintain intergenerational fidelity by hiding. Members of their community from knowledge of the outside world, hiding them from apologetics that work against their religious system or hiding them from other religious systems.

If you can build a system, a denominational Abrahamic system that people still choose when they're exposed to all other forms of information. This isn't just for our system. This is for your system. If you're like what you guys are doing is crazy, fine. [01:10:00] But build one of your own systems that still hold strong, even when kids are raised exposed to all of the different systems they could join, because that's the system that will pass with intergenerational fidelity in the age of information.

If information is caustic to your tradition, your tradition will die in the age of information. Because now that is what we live and breathe. You cannot hide people from it. I love you, Simone. You're great. Really. And I appreciate you talking through these with me. These are ones you hadn't really heard before. I don't know if you have a new thought on any of this.

Simone Collins: Well, we've talked about it a lot. You know, even though I haven't read these, I, it just resonates, but maybe because Those things have never really drawn me in.

So maybe it's all so easy for

Malcolm Collins: me to say. They drew your parents in at times. So our kids could be susceptible to them. You do have a genetic predilection.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Yeah. I wonder if autism skips generations. [01:11:00] Cause my grandparents were fine. But yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I've seen some autistic people who are really drawn to this stuff. Yeah. I guess it depends on the numerology stuff, which is a policy. Oh

Simone Collins: yeah, you're right. You are right.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you to death. I mean, but what is numerology of not a belief that you have supernatural access to knowledge?

No, that's too good. It worked that way. He doesn't hide truth. He just puts it out there. Yeah. You're totally right. Everything we're seeing is just out there from reading these traditions and thinking through what's best for our children. Yeah. Anyway, love you to death. I love you too.

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