Assessing Soul Before Systems

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Allen Holmes, Senior Pastor of Definition Church. Allen has served at Definition for 25 years, leading it from a congregation of 30 people to one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. But in this conversation, we don’t start with strategy—we start with the soul. Allen shares how a personal marriage crisis early in ministry exposed deep character issues and launched him on a decades-long journey of spiritual formation that has shaped both his leadership and his church.

Is it possible that the greatest lid on your ministry isn’t your strategy—but your inner life? Allen challenges leaders to rethink success, crisis, and longevity through the lens of character formation.

• Pressure reveals who you really are. // Leadership rarely collapses because of incompetence—it collapses because pressure exposes unaddressed character issues. Early in seminary and marriage, Allen’s wife told him she didn’t love him and didn’t want to remain in ministry. The crisis shattered his sense of calling and identity. Allen—by God’s grace—was able to ask: What in me has produced this? That shift from defensiveness to humility marked the beginning of deep transformation.
• From gifted producer to formed leader. // Allen explains that many leaders are rewarded for production, not formation. A gifted communicator can build a crowd while remaining insecure, defensive, and relationally immature. You can be a great producer and a poor leader. True leadership requires learning to lead yourself. For Allen, that meant confronting independence, insecurity, and relational blind spots—issues rooted in his upbringing that were sabotaging both marriage and ministry.
• Prioritizing presence over performance. // The turning point in Allen’s growth was deceptively simple: he began prioritizing his relationship with Jesus. Guided by a mentor, he learned to read Scripture for formation rather than information and to cultivate rhythms of prayer, worship, and dependence on the Holy Spirit. Ministry leaders face an occupational hazard—handling Scripture transactionally for sermons while neglecting personal communion with Christ. For Allen, consistent morning surrender became the foundation for long-term sustainability.
• Marriage as spiritual formation. // Allen describes marriage as God’s primary classroom for sanctification. Drawing from the biblical metaphor of Christ and the Church, he explains how learning to live in the presence of his wife taught him how to live in the presence of God. Simple daily rhythms—morning prayer, consistent check-ins, shared meals, evening walks, praying together—have sustained their relationship for decades. Rather than competing with ministry, his marriage strengthens it. What God forms privately shapes what leaders produce publicly.
• Culture flows from character. // Over 25 years, Allen’s commitment to personal formation has shaped Definition Church’s culture. Every staff member has a “rule of life” and an intentional growth plan. Personal development is written into job descriptions as the number-one responsibility. Staff are given monthly retreat days to spend extended time alone with Jesus. Spiritual practices are embedded into the life of the church. Allen believes you reproduce who and what you are—so the greatest contribution a leader can make is becoming more like Christ.
• The power of staying. // Allen notes that lasting impact often requires long tenure. His senior leadership team has served together for decades, building trust and shared formation. In a skeptical culture, credibility grows through consistency. But longevity without formation is dangerous. The process prepares leaders for the purpose; bypassing the process risks collapse. Like Joseph’s journey from entitlement to anointing in the Old Testament, leaders must pass through refining seasons before they can steward influence well.

To learn more about Definition Church, explore their resources, and connect with Allen, visit definition.church.

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Today’s going to be a really good conversation. It’s one of those conversations that I think we all need to have, looked carefully at, think about ourselves, think about the teams we lead. I really do think it’s one of those make or break kind of conversations. And so you’ll be rewarded for tuning in today.

Rich Birch — Excited to have Dr. Allen Holmes with us. He’s a senior pastor of a church called Definition Church. He’s been there since 2000, so a few years. They’re located in North Carolina and is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. They have a residency program as well that’s called to train and develop next generation of mission-minded ministry leaders. And believing that generosity is a privilege, Definition Church also partners with a number of other ministries, churches, and organizations to really serve their community. Dr. Allen, so glad you’re here. Thanks for being here today.

Allen Holmes — Wow. Well, I’m so excited to be here, Rich, and appreciate the invitation.

Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be a fun conversation. Why don’t you kind of fill out the picture?

Allen Holmes — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Tell us a little bit about Definition. Kind of tell us the story. Give us a sense of the church.

Allen Holmes — Well, my wife and I, we grew up down in Wilmington, which is on the coast of North Carolina. In 2000, we were finishing seminary and looking for a church, really looking for a city where we could plant our life and stay in one place kind of forever. And we were in a small town. Our first church was in a small town of about 1500. And Greensboro was one of the cities we visited, and there was a church here that had lost their pastor. They only had about 30 people.

Allen Holmes — And the truth is that was safe and kind of gave us a a lot of freedom to make mistakes and learn and grow as leaders and as a man and a woman, as a married couple, as parents, you know, all the things without mistakes, really the pressure of a big church and a lot of expectations. And that was perfect for us. And and we fell in love with the city and it’s been 25 years now. It’s hard to believe that. And and but we love it here. Greensboro’s home now and and Definition’s been great to us.

Rich Birch — So good. Well, I want to take advantage of the fact that you’ve been at your location, at your church for a number of years. When you look back over two and a half decades of ministry, and you know you’ve seen a lot of churches in your community, and then just even wider you know across the country, that sort of thing. Where have you seen leadership fall apart in churches? We’ll start with the negative to start.

Allen Holmes — Yeah.

Rich Birch — When’s it break down most often? Why does, you know, why do the wheels come off? Where have you seen that happen?

Allen Holmes — You know, I think generally it’s just anything that creates pressure. So I think we have a tendency to train and prepare as leaders when there’s no pressure.

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — And then all of a sudden we find ourselves in a situation where there’s a tremendous amount of pressure. And in those moments, it’s not what we know that matters, but who we are.

Rich Birch — So true.

Allen Holmes — It kind of gets it gets exposed. And this happened for me the first time I was in seminary. It was my second semester. My wife, Tina, and I had just gotten married. So we were five months into marriage. I was living my dream. I mean, seminary for, you know, somebody who wants to be a pastor is like Disney World, right? I mean, I’m in class every day studying the Bible, surrounded by all these people that love Jesus. I’ve got this vision for changing the world. I mean, it was just wonderful.

Allen Holmes — And in month five, towards the end of that second semester, I came home and and my wife wasn’t doing well. I didn’t realize, you know, how bad it was. But that day I came home and she said, I don’t love you.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Allen Holmes — And I don’t want to be married. I will never be in the ministry. I’m going home.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Allen Holmes — And it’s like, all of a sudden, my whole world just began to fall apart. You know, at that stage of life, the only thing that really mattered to me was ministry. You know I had this call, this sense of calling. And my marriage.

Allen Holmes — I really I grew up in a broken home, really didn’t have any family. And my wife and actually her family were family to me.

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — And so in that moment, it felt like I was losing everything that mattered.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Allen Holmes — And I realized that despite all of my gifts and my zeal and my passion and my good intentions, beneath the surface, I had all of this on all of these unaddressed issues from my life story that were now coming to the surface and creating a mess in my marriage. And that crisis, that pressure exposed those things and created an opportunity for me to learn and grow. And by God’s grace, we dropped out of seminary, we moved back home. And I met Dr. Bennett, who became a mentor to me. He was a retired pastor.

Allen Holmes — And I just started this journey of instead of being focused on just what I do and what I could produce, which is all I knew up until that moment, to really asking some deeper questions about who am I? And what’s driving all of this behavior and what’s creating this problem in my marriage? And how do I invite Christ to really do a deeper work in my heart and life and character? And and I’ve been on that journey now for almost 30 years.

Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredibly compelling. One of my mentors, he talks about how he burnt out early and he had kind of, you know, ended up on the side of the road and, you know, in a really bad spot in life. And he says, he looks back on that and says, wow, by by God’s grace, that happened.

Allen Holmes — Right.

Rich Birch — You know, and, and wow, that, you know, his whole, it changed the whole trajectory of you know his life and he made a whole bunch of changes. And he feels really, in a weird sort of way, thankful for for that, if even though you’re thankful, it feels like a weird emotion to have around such a crisis you know in you know in your life.

Allen Holmes — Right.

Rich Birch — Now, so many leaders, we’re so focused on the mission. We’re so focused on leading others. We’re so focused on pushing forward. We miss this stuff. There’s there are these things bubbling under the surface. And and we haven’t had the grace of a wife who would raise her hand and say, hey, this enough is enough. Why do you think that gap is so common in ministry? Why is this just like a thing we see all the time?

Allen Holmes — Well, I think to your point, in ministry, just like not just in ministry, but any organizational leadership, you’re rewarded and celebrated for what you produce. And the truth is that’s all most people can see. I mean, when my marriage blew up, if you would have gone around and interviewed my friends, my family, Tina’s family, my professors, if you would have asked anybody about me, they would have said, Allen’s a rising star. He loves God. I mean, he he’s doing all the stuff. He’s checking all the boxes. This guy’s going to really be somebody one day.

Allen Holmes — But what you couldn’t see is that beneath the surface, I didn’t know who I was. And I was insecure. I was defensive. I was independent. I really didn’t know how to do relationships well. I was insensitive.

Allen Holmes — I didn’t have like a bad, ugly heart. I mean, I loved and cared about people. I just had all of these unaddressed, unfinished issues in my life. But my giftedness would allow me to produce despite that.

Allen Holmes — You know, I think sometimes people um wonder why are leaders great at leading, but, you know, they struggle to lead themselves. I’m not sure that’s really a real thing. What leaders are good at doing is they’re great at producing. They’re not great at leading if they’re not great at leading themselves. In other words, I can be a great producer and a bad leader.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Allen Holmes — I can be great on stage and draw a crowd and kind of be a slave-driving leader. And it might, from a numbers perspective and people that aren’t close, they look at it and think, wow, this is wildly successful. But the people on the inner circle know better, that the culture is unhealthy and and this person’s, you know, shallow or he’s a tyrant or whatever the, you know, whatever the case might be.

Allen Holmes — There’s all kinds of ways to build a crowd in American culture today that have very little to do with Jesus. And we’ve seen that over and over and over again. So I think in order to be a great leader, you have to be able and willing to lead yourself.

Rich Birch — So what did that process look like for you the kind of internal journey of trying to name what your wife had or or define maybe what your wife had named to really get clarity on that? Maybe unpack that step a little bit first before we get on to what changed. You know, how how did you, what did that look like? How, what kind of space did you have to create? What, what, did where did that, what did that part of the journey take you?

Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, when I look back on all this, I’m, you know, I’m just so grateful for God’s grace because I didn’t even understand the process I was in. I mean, you know, I was just in it and trying to navigate it. But by God’s grace, I decided to ask the question, what in my character has produced this in my marriage. And what’s really shocking about that is all of my seminary buddies were saying, what is wrong with your wife?

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — And I, by God’s grace, was saying, what’s wrong with me?
I had enough humility to look at my wife and go, you know, I married this woman because she was so full of grace and kind and gentle, this beautiful soul, this beautiful person. So if she’s reacting this way, chances are she’s not the problem. You know, sometimes.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Allen Holmes — Something about our relationship is producing that. And actually, so what it was is, my wife grew up in this really great, healthy family, parent, two-parent home, siblings, people in her house all the time. Her mom cooked every night. I ate at their house five nights a week. I mean, it’s like their family became my family.

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — Well, I grew up with none of that. I grew up with a single mom, basically all by myself, raising myself. And those two worlds just collided. So when we went seminary, I was doing school full-time and working full-time, and she was working full-time. And I thought, well, that was normal. That’s what I’d been doing for years and years. I’d worked my way through college. I’d been and on my own since I was 18.

Allen Holmes — And so that seemed normal. But for Tina, it’s like she went from living in this beautiful community to being all by herself at seminary, and I’m not even there.

Rich Birch — Right, right. Wow.

Allen Holmes — And she’s and so she was relationally just dying, and I didn’t know how to be sensitive to that. You know, I wanted to just say, you know, get over it. Life’s hard…

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — …which would not have worked.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Allen Holmes — You know But I just had enough grace to begin asking, God, what are you trying to do in my heart? And and like you were saying earlier about your buddy, the thing I would say today, if I would have married a woman strong enough to tolerate that moment, I would have been I would have never survived in ministry because I would have been a driven, legalistic, judgmental, demanding kind of pastor that that really, I think, used the Bible to beat people up.

Allen Holmes — And I mean, instead of being a man who really actually experienced, I guess, an inner this inner, deeper work and can invite people into something that is deeply spiritual and transformational and life-giving, you know, I would have just been this ugly, difficult pastor to be with. And so I’m so grateful. I mean, that that really began this journey that just changed and has literally touched everything about my life and ministry and our marriage today. I mean, it’s amazing.

Rich Birch — Yeah. So what, what changed? What, how did you change your, you know, approach to making decisions, to dealing with the pressure, dealing with the pace? You know, obviously we were kind of at the point in the journey where you took a pause and made some changes, but eventually, you know, you ended up back on that path and back into ministry and have been leading and the ministry has been flourishing. So what were some of the, the kind of shifts that you made that were that, in hindsight seemed like that was, those were keystone decisions.

Allen Holmes — Well, this sounds so silly to even say it, especially to Christian leaders, but I had to prioritize my relationship with Jesus.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Allen Holmes — Well, there’s a good idea.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, exactly. Write that down. What did he say? No but that’s true, though. Lean in on that because you know that there are…

Allen Holmes — Yes.

Rich Birch — Listen, we all know we go, we all go through seasons where that our relationship goes colder. Some of us, we, you know, we just, it’s been like years, decades since we feel like we’ve had a thriving relationship. So lean in on that.

Allen Holmes — Well, you know, it’s interesting when I when we moved back to Wilmington and I started spending time with Dr. Bennett, he just he just pressed me on that all the time. Give your mornings to Jesus. Give your mornings to Jesus. And I just began learning how do I develop a meaningful time with Jesus every day? How do I read the Bible for formation instead of information.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Allen Holmes — And how, you know, how do I worship for formation? How do I what is my relationship to the Holy Spirit and inviting him into those moments to help me see and to understand, to teach and to heal and to counsel me into healing, wholeness, growth, all those things.

Allen Holmes — You know, how do I press into community? You know, I was so independent. And the truth is, I mean, 30 years later, I’m still working on this.

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — I was so trained to be independent and I liked being independent. I wasn’t unhappy independent…

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — …but independence allows you to hold on to your immaturity because nobody’s challenging it.

Rich Birch — Nobody’s in your business.

Allen Holmes — Nobody’s confronted. That’s right. And so I just began really developing that time with Jesus and just fell in love with spending time with Jesus. And again, that that changed everything. And again, as silly as that sounds, I’ve been in so many groups. It’s kind of shocking how often I’m with pastors and they just say, I just, I don’t have time to read my Bible.

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — I don’t have time to worship. I can’t give 15 or 20 minutes in the mornings to the Lord. And it’s like, if that if that’s true, then something is just so out of order about our life and ministry. And we’ve not learned to juggle all of that. And because we’re not handling that well, so many pastors, they don’t finish in ministry.

Rich Birch —Right.

Allen Holmes — Ministry chews them up and spits them out. And so we have to make that the priority. So important. So important.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I really appreciate that. I appreciate you leaning in on that. And this is an area where it’s an occupational hazard in what we’ve picked to do…

Allen Holmes — Oh, yeah. That’s right.

Rich Birch — …because our our job is to produce that in other people. And so we have to handle the scripture in in a way, you know, it’s like a part of what we do to produce the content we produce or whatever that is. And it can become very transactional if we don’t watch. And so I really appreciate you leaning in on that.

Allen Holmes — That’s exactly right.

Rich Birch — What about on the married side? What advice would you give? Again, you’ve, you’ve are happily married today and you know, all these years later.

Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s right.

Rich Birch — And, what, what rhythms have you found that have worked well for you and your wife, for you to continue to lead and to lead, you know, at a high level. The reason why we’re talking is because you’re leading a fast-growing church.

Allen Holmes — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But, you know, you’re doing that and keeping your marriage. What are some of the rhythms that you, that you help coach other, maybe younger leaders to, to really instill on that side, to, to, to be, to be whole on that side?

Allen Holmes — One of the things that was so helpful early on is recognizing that my marriage was God’s gift to me to learn, not just to grow and to mature as a man, but even to learn to walk with God.

Allen Holmes — And one of the things you see in Scripture over and over and over again is the primary metaphor God uses to describe our relationship with Him as a husband and a wife, that we’re the bride of Christ.

Allen Holmes — And what I found is that my marriage and my relationship with Jesus were running in parallel. So if I learned something with Tina, it strengthened my relationship with Jesus. And when I would learn something with Jesus, it would actually strengthen my relationship with Tina, that they were you know playing off of each other that way.

Allen Holmes — And so as Tina and I started working on our marriage, I mean, it was it was as simple like even when I think about giving my mornings to God. When I wake up every day, the first thing I do is I roll over on my knees. I acknowledge Jesus, you are my king, king of my heart and life.

Allen Holmes — I invite the Holy Spirit to fill me fresh for that day. And I probably pray there three to five minutes, and then I roll over on my back and put my hand on my sleeping wife. And I just take a minute and begin praying and and blessing my wife.

Allen Holmes — And then I’ll get up and I’ll I’ll kind of have of usually a couple hours where I can just be in the Word, I can worship, I can be in so have silence and solitude and just allow God to minister to my soul. And then i don’t ever leave the house without giving my wife a kiss, telling her I love her, embracing her.

Allen Holmes — During the day, I’m going to check in two or three times. How’s your day going? What’s going on with you? You know, if I’m driving somewhere or between meetings, you know, little quick touches.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Allen Holmes — When I get home, I’m going to walk in the house. The first thing I’m going do is I’m going to find Tina. We’re going to eat dinner together that night. At the end of the day, we’re going to maybe go on a walk that night. We may get in bed and just both be reading a book for a little bit. We might talk about our day or what’s going on with our kids or life.

Allen Holmes — Before we go to bed, before we go to sleep, we’ll pray together. And again, I want to make sure that I’m affirming my love for… When I describe all of that to people and what I try to tell them is have a response. The Christian life is learning to live in the presence of God. And marriage is learning to live in the presence of your wife.

Allen Holmes — And so I know throughout the day what’s going on in the heart of my wife and how to love and serve her well, even when I’m here at work. And as a Christian, I’ve got to learn how do I live in the presence of God and recognize he’s always with me. And I want to bring Jesus into every moment, every meeting, every decision. And versus I have devotional time and I leave God at home. And then I come to work and do my work.

Allen Holmes — So that’s just one example. As I learned how to do that with Tina, I saw how to apply to my relationship with God and vice versa.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. Yeah, that’s so helpful. Let’s talk about how your internal life and your own growth and your own staying close to him, what impact has that had on the church, on your team, on the people you lead? How do you see those two, you know, working together?

Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. So part of it is you reproduce who and what you are.

Rich Birch — True.

Allen Holmes — So what we’re describing, and of course, I’ve got 25 years of this, and so that gives me a little bit of an advantage in that regard because this takes time to build. You know, it doesn’t happen overnight. But when this has been kind of the direction of your life for over 25 years, then it becomes the direction of the organization and the people that you lead. And so on our on our church staff and our church and the way we do ministry, the way our we you know our mission is all affected by what we’re talking about.

Allen Holmes — And so our staff, that you know, they all have a rule of life. They all have a very intentional plan a plan for their spiritual and personal and leadership growth in their life. And and we work as a team to to facilitate that. In fact, in our job descriptions, their number one responsibility is their personal growth and development. And we tell them all the time, the greatest thing you can do for everyone in your life is to learn and grow as a leader. That’s the greatest contribution you can make. When you do that, you everybody comes up. you You bless everybody. So work harder on who you are than what you’re building.

Allen Holmes — And so we just emphasize that. And and then we do little things like, you know, in our in our church culture, we once a month, they have a retreat day where they’re required to go and be alone with Jesus for a whole day. And they’re being paid to do it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — It’s their, you know, it’s part of their job. We emphasize a spiritual practice every month, and we’re doing that in all of our groups, and we model that as a staff. Like in January, our spiritual practice is fasting, and we’re about to begin you know a season of prayer and fasting like a lot of churches do in January. And so that’s integrated into everything that we’re doing as a church and to our staff. They’re encouraged to do that, and so we’re just constantly making sure that they’re learning and growing. And then that begins to shape the culture your church. It shapes your ability to actually make disciples in your church. I mean, at the end of the day, if on a scale of 1 to 10, as a follower of Christ, if I’m a five, I can only lead three and fours…

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — …and I can only attract twos.

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — And then there’s nobody that I can help, right?

Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yes.

Allen Holmes — Because I’m already at the bottom.

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah.

Allen Holmes — But if I can be an eight and lead sixes and sevens and attract four and fives, then we can reach down and help the two and threes get up, you know. So my what God is doing in me, and that’s true for everybody on our team, is the greatest contribution they can make, and it brings everybody up. And so that’s just really worked into our culture.

Rich Birch — Think at like from a diagnostic point of view. A church calls you up and they feel stuck organizationally. They feel like, man, things are just, they’re not going well. When you take a call like that, is your reflex to go towards, well, where are things with the with the leadership team internally?

Rich Birch — Or you know do we start organizationally? Hey, let’s fix a couple of things. Help us talk think Help us think through um how do you handle that kind of conversation? Or how does this conversation inform a conversation like that when it comes your way?

Allen Holmes — That’s a great question. I mean, generally my response will be, I’ll tell people really, if you need organizational, just kind of practical, how do I do it information, I just give them some resources, you know, so I’ll send them, go to the Grow Conference. They’re probably the best in the world at it.

Rich Birch — Yeah, they’re so good.

Allen Holmes — They can tell you how to do these different things. But then I want to come back to the thing I think we can help you with is really the soul of your organization, which is a reflection of what God’s doing in you. So let’s talk about who you are as a leader, the way you live your life, the way you lead your staff, the culture that you’re building and creating. Because ultimately, if you get all these systems, but you don’t have culture, culture trumps systems every single time.

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — And when you get the systems and the culture right, you begin, everybody’s attracted to that. In fact, I think maybe one of the big problems in Western culture, and this is hard to admit, but I think the church has to admit this, is that people, people are not going to church. Church attendance is on decline, but it’s not because people don’t want God. They’re just not convinced they can find him at church.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s so true. Yeah.

Allen Holmes — I mean, they’re they’re spiritually hungry, but the cultures of our church, people come into that culture and what they kind of intuitively know is that this doesn’t feel healthy or spiritual. So you can create all the systems you want and send out flyers and do all kinds of things. But if people show up at your church and what they intuitively know is that this isn’t healthy and spiritual, you can’t grow your church. So you have to begin there.

Allen Holmes —It’s also true if it is healthy and spiritual, even if your systems are a little suspect, people will tolerate a lot of a lot of that because they’re so spiritually hungry. And I think that’s more true than ever before.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very true. Yeah. Well, yeah, my good friend, Carey Nieuwhof, he says like, man, it would be so sad if people came to our churches and all they found was us, right? You know, at the end of the day, right? Like we were trying to point them to Jesus and as as kind of elementary as it sounds, but it’s just so true.

Rich Birch — If there isn’t something happening there that’s bigger than just what they can get anywhere else, why would they come to us? Why would they engage in our churches? Yeah, that’s that’s…

Allen Holmes — You know, we just came through Christmas, and and one of the things that I think Protestants miss is is when we think about Christmas, we think about Emmanuel, God with us. We think about the incarnation, God became flesh, and we think that’s something that happened 2,000 years ago. And the truth is, that’s supposed to be true of the church today. We are the body of Christ.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Allen Holmes — God in us. And when that’s true, people, when they show up at our churches or show up at our dinner table, they should experience Jesus when they’re with us because we’re becoming more and more like him.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, it’s good.

Allen Holmes — And then our life gives validity to our message.

Rich Birch — Well, one of the things I’m working on a book for for churches about breaking the 2,000 barrier. And one of the interesting stats that we’ve bumped into is that oftentimes the, when a church breaks the 2,000 barrier, the senior leader and often the senior leadership team have been there for going on two decades, 18 years, 19 years, 22 years. Like it’s just a really common pattern you see.

Rich Birch — Now that’s not the perception. Our perception is like, oh, there’s like the just add water mega fast church that just explodes and it all happens. But that actually isn’t the normative pattern. the Normative pattern is it’s it takes a long time. You’ve been at your church for 25 years. Talk us through how longevity, how does that tie into this conversation? How does it tie into the impact you’re seeing, you know, at Definition? Talk us through that.

Allen Holmes — Yeah. You know, it’s interesting when I, one of the other real key moments for me is I went back to do my doctorate of ministry degree at Gordon-Conwell in redemptive leadership. And so much of what we were studying is how God works in the crisis, in these pressure moments to, you know, expose the unfinished places in our character so that we can grow and become more like Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom impact in the world.

Allen Holmes — And one of my professors, Dr. Powers, he actually wrote a book called Redemptive Leadership. It’s a simple little book, but profound, where he describes leadership development in five stages. And stage one is is a skilled leader where you get a leadership role just based on your skill. So maybe the ability to preach. And so they call you to be the pastor. That’s how I became the pastor of my first church. I could preach. I hadn’t done anything else. But they let me be a pastor because I can preach.

Allen Holmes — And then the second stage is a principal leader where you begin to understand why you do what you do. But the third stage, which is so important, is the character stage. And in order for a leader to go through the character stage, God always uses a crisis to bring him into that stage. But when he comes into that stage, he has a choice.

Allen Holmes — In that stage, he can open his heart and allow God to do that deeper work, or he can go back and hide behind his skills and principle. And that’s what pastors do a lot of times. The reason you see this turnover every, you know, depending on what statistic you read, every two to four years, pastors are leaving churches is because they come into a church and they have this honeymoon season, and then all of a sudden there’s a crisis that exposes some things, and they start floating their resume and hiding behind their skill, rather than allowing God to deal with their character so that they can advance and become a transformative, redemptive leader.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Allen Holmes — So I think one of the things that’s been so true for us is we’ve just tried to say to people, when there’s a crisis, don’t panic, don’t run away, see it as an opportunity.

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — In fact, I ended up doing my dissertation on the idea that if we could teach this model to leaders, that it would cause them to respond differently in the crisis. Instead of running from it, they would run to it and open their heart, and God could use that to really propel them into their redemptive future. And the research said that was true.

Allen Holmes — And so we’ve tried to really work that in our culture to understand when something goes wrong, don’t run away and don’t hide.

Rich Birch — Right.

Allen Holmes — Let’s run into it and trust God to meet us there so that this thing, God works redemptively to use it for your benefit and to launch you into your future. And because that’s been our culture, people have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, Rick has been here 25 years. He’s actually here two Sundays longer than I’ve been here.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Allen Holmes — Eric’s been here 24 years. Jonathan’s been here 19 years. Steve’s been Chelsea’s been here almost this year will be 14 years. Steve’s been here 10 years. I mean, so they’ve just been here a long, long, long time, and that but that’s why, is that they’ve seen these moments and we’ve helped them to find God in it so that actually works for us instead of against us.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s great. I love that. You know, I think if more churches, if more leaders had the mindset, even as we led our people that like, hey, if they come to us and it feels like there’s a crisis brewing here, I do feel like our culture is so bent towards like, it’s not just them leaving, it’s us leaving them. It’s like, okay, time’s up, you’re done, like move on. We would never say it that way because we’re better Christians and we know, but but that’s the vibe we give people.

Allen Holmes — Right.

Rich Birch — And And I do think it’s been interesting as we’ve been looking really from a church growth point of view, this is a really sticky trend that we see that it’s like you, the key leaders have to be here for a long time. And it makes sense on lots of levels.

Allen Holmes — Right.

Rich Birch — This level, it makes sense. It makes sense on just like community influence. Like you you have to be around for a long time. People are super suspicious of the church and they’re not You know, they don’t come like that maybe 30 years ago, people trusted the church. Well, that’s just not true anymore.

Allen Holmes — Right.

Rich Birch — And so when you’re around for a long time that, you know, that makes a difference. And it’s hard to, it’s not like a really pithy bullet point because it’s like, well, just stick around. But it is, it’s critically important to the, you know, to the overall mix.

Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, that make that reminds me of a couple of things. One, one of the, think, things we have to be careful about today is I think we are doing such a good job of planting churches. We’re all for church planting. We just help the church in our city plant. We’re about to launch somebody out next year to plant under the church. I mean, that’s a fantastic thing, but we’ve gotten so good at it.

Allen Holmes — If you’re a 30-year-old and you plant a church and you start with 500 on day one, it could be detrimental to your spiritual journey. And we just have to kind of recognize that.

Rich Birch — Talk more about that. Why would that be?

Allen Holmes — Well, like when I think about myself, when I came to Definition, we had about 30 people, and we did not average 100 for an entire year until my seventh year here.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Allen Holmes — Now, during those seven years, I thought it was the greatest church in America. I mean, we were having a good time, and we were basically a college ministry more than a church back then. When I came, we had an older congregation, but my first Sunday, 15 college students showed up.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Allen Holmes — And, of course, I was only 26, and so I naturally gravitated towards them. We kind of became this college ministry, and it wasn’t until several years later that they were old enough to get married and start having babies that we actually became a real church. And, uh, but during that time, the truth is God, I just believe God was in that because I was still so young and inexperienced and immature as a man and leader that the last thing I needed was any more success.

Allen Holmes — It would have really, success can really blind you to your areas of, you know, where you need really need to grow. In fact, one of the things that you see in several places in Scripture, and one of the things that we tell our church all that time, that the Christian life is a lifelong, transformational journey with Christ.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Allen Holmes — And you see this in several places in Scripture. Let me give you a couple examples. You think about Joseph. I don’t if you’ve ever thought about this story, but I was preaching on it a couple of years ago, and I realized in this story, there are three times that Joseph has a coat. His first coat as a child is a coat of entitlement, and it needs to be ripped off.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Allen Holmes — His next coat was given by Pharaoh. It’s a coat of self-sufficiency. It needs to be ripped off, and Potiphar’s wife took it off. And then third, there’s a coat of anointing where he’s come through this crucible. He’s come through these seasons of pain and struggle and wrestling and and suffering that has produced this character. And now God can elevate him and give him almost unlimited power and authority without the threat of him abusing it.

Allen Holmes — Well, without that process, God could never. If God puts any man in that position without that process, it destroys you. I mean, you you’re not prepared. You can’t handle that. You know, tell people all the time that one of the reasons God doesn’t just tell us our future, you know, people are always wanting to know, you know, what’s God going to do?

Allen Holmes — And the truth is, if God told us what we were going to be doing in 10 years, we’d try to go there tomorrow. And the process prepares us for our purpose. You cannot bypass the process…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Allen Holmes — …and still fulfill your purpose.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Allen Holmes — And so God works in that that challenge. I think about Psalm 23, and I think Psalm 23 describes three stages. First stage is that I’m this child. I’m very young and immature in my faith. And then I become this warrior. And then I eventually become friend. But I have to go through the valley of the shadow of death to get up that mountain in order to be a friend of God.

Allen Holmes — And there’s no way to bypass that. it’s seeing you You see this over and over and over again in scripture. And it’s just part of our sanctification. It’s the way God works in our lives.

Rich Birch — It’s so good.

Allen Holmes — Now, one of the things that sometimes somebody might hear all this and they go, well, I know so-and-so. I’ll give you a great example, classic example of this. Chris Hodges is one of the most respected pastors in America.

Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure.

Allen Holmes — And he he has pastored one of the fastest growing churches in in America. But there is a reason he has been so fruitful. And the reason is before he ever became a pastor, he didn’t start that church until he was 40.

Allen Holmes — And before becoming that pastor, he’d served under two of the best pastors and two of the strongest churches in America. So he was so much more mature than the average church planter when he started. And I’m 53, I don’t think I’m where Chris was at 40 when he started that church.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Allen Holmes — So that was a big advantage in why they’ve been able to be so consistently fruitful for such a long period of time. And we just have to recognize that. And again, that’s why it’s so important that we’re focused on what God is doing in us…

Rich Birch — So good.

Allen Holmes — …because over time, that’s what produces the best results. It’s just a mature man or woman of God.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Love it. Well, Allen, thank you so much for today’s conversation. This has been a great, it’s been really rich conversation. There’s a lot more we could we could talk about, but I really appreciate you giving us the time today. As we wrap up today’s episode, what any kind of final words you’d give to a leader, as they’re thinking about reflecting on this kind of inner life, leading themselves, you know, trying to align who they are outside with who they are inside. Help us Help us with the kind of final word as we kind of wrap up today’s call.

Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, I was reading a book recently, and and this quote, I’ve just been meditating on it the last couple of weeks, and it the quote is, God loves us as we are, not as we should be, for none of us are as we should be.

Rich Birch — It’s good. Oh wow that’s good.

Allen Holmes — And I say that just to say I think so many pastors are trying so hard like the older brother in the prodigal story. They’re trying so hard to work for God and to prove something. And I just think we got to begin with falling in love with him and trust he’s better at producing than we are. And if we just fall in love with Jesus and allow him to make us more like that father, his kids will come running home.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Allen Holmes — because they’re looking for fathers. They’re they’re looking for that place of grace and life and hope. And so that characterizes who we are in our soul. And people are just so attracted to that. So I would just say to all the pastors and leaders listening, God is crazy about you. You can’t do anything about that. You don’t have to earn it and none of us deserve it. And if we can learn to really receive that and fall in love with Jesus again, it just changes everything.

Rich Birch — So good. Well, sir, I appreciate you being on today’s episode. If people want, if we want to send people online somewhere to track with you or with definition, where do we want to send them so they they could connect with you?

Allen Holmes — Yeah, they can just Google Definition Church. And I do have a website. There’s not much on it yet. There’s probably not anything there that’s going to help them. But I need to do a better job of developing some content and getting it out there. But the best place to look would be just to go to our website. There are some resources there for churches.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Allen Holmes — And of course, you know, we’d love to hear from them. And we really appreciate you just letting us, inviting us to be on the show today and to get to encourage leaders is such a such a privilege.

Rich Birch — No, I appreciate you. I just want to honor you. You know, publicly. We reach out to churches like this, frankly, because you end up on the fastest growing church list. And we’re like, hey, what’s God using? And I love where this conversation went today. I think super helpful for people. So thanks so much, Allen. Appreciate being on today.

Allen Holmes — Thanks, Rich. Have a great day.