Standards for Interpretive Science

Jim talks with Bonnitta Roy, interdisciplinary thinker and founder of the Pop-Up School and the Divinity School, about her worldview, the deep foundations of her work, and an upcoming conference in Cambridge. They discuss the phenomenology of waking up and recomposing, life as a stream of participation, being nested in place through horses, pigeons, bees, and gardens, covariant motions as her process-philosophy term for embeddedness, the limits of computational rationalism, the bench scientist versus the metatheoretical interpreter, Michael Levin's interpretive science and the standards it demands, McGilchrist's left-brain dominance in late-stage Game A, early complexity theory's assumption that enough compute could map all relations, the open future and retrofitted causal explanation, emergence and causality as co-resident trees, Bonnitta's critique that emergence does insufficient explanatory work, continuous gradients beneath emergent thresholds, the traffic jam as a case study in laminar flow breakdown and downward causality, a 55-gallon drum of Jim Rutt chemicals, modularity as a post-hoc feature of development rather than its driver, where the impulse to get a beer actually comes from, the Buddhist thought experiment of cells covarying above and below thresholds, the evolutionary stack from amoeba to eukaryote to bone, white blood cells as ancient life forms living inside the body as habitat, the importance of precise definitions of consciousness, levels of simulation from New Caledonian crows to humans simulating a simulation into other people, the introspective nervous system's first-person and always-running third-person modes, Anil Seth's hallucination framing and Bonnitta's belief that simulation is the better word, why calling biological visual adjustment a hallucination is irresponsible pedagogy, Kant and the grounded approximation of reality, cultural variation in color perception, complex potential states versus the adjacent possible, Elon Musk as an example of seeing past constraints to new potential states, Bonnitta's critique of stage theory as pipeline-shaped rather than genuinely developmental, the Agile Manifesto generation acting their way into results without the formation stage theory assumes, David Bays's mathematics book and culturally bound leaps in simulation capacity, egocentric versus allocentric modes in neurodynamics, the self-generative trap of inner development and parts work where parts have parts, the three-legged stool of self, other, and world, the egregore as a hugely powerful collective agent, the historical arc from Renaissance world-builders to postmodern distributed agency, the Divinity School's question of how to lead free and willing participants, post-formal actor superpower types with powerful action logics but insufficient character, and much more. Episode Transcript Divinity School Conference: Innovations in Biological Intelligence & Machine Agency JRS EP 17: Bonnitta Roy on Process Thinking and Complexity The Pop-Up School (Substack) GSNV (Substack) Bonnitta Roy is founder of Alderlore Insight Center, and academic director of The Divinity School. She describes herself as a gardener, horse whisperer, and insight guide. She has two Substack publications: The POP-UP School where she is currently building out her philosophy of The Global State Naturalized View, and GSNV, where she posts articles generated by her GPT-engine trained on that view.