This is a in-person recorded podcast. The video is available on YouTube.
Michiel van Elk is an Associate Professor of Cognitive Psychology at Leiden University and head of the PRiSM Lab, where he studies the cognitive neuroscience of religion and psychedelic experiences. In this episode, we take a sober look at the current state of psychedelic science, moving beyond the cultural evangelism and media hype. Michiel critiques the biomedical model of psychedelic therapy, discusses the disappointing effect sizes in recent clinical trials, and highlights methodological issues like "breaking blind" and selection bias.
We explore why psychedelics are not a "reset" button for the brain but rather amplifiers of meaning, potentially functioning as "super placebos." The conversation covers the theoretical gaps in the field, contrasting the popular "entropic brain" hypotheses with the lack of solid empirical data. Michiel also outlines his vision for the future of the field: a move toward "sober science" that separates the study of these substances from the spiritual fervor that often surrounds them.
00:00 - Meet Michiel van Elk: Academic Background & The PRISM Lab
02:34 - The Role of Philosophy in Psychedelic Science
07:34 - Critiquing "Narrative Theories" in Psychology
11:09 - From Pentecostalism to Atheism: Michiel's Personal Journey
17:59 - Critiquing the Cognitive Science of Religion (CSR)
30:36 - "Absorption" & The Process of "Real-Making"
39:59 - The "More Real Than Real" Debate: Perception vs. Meaning
51:14 - The Flaws of the Biomedical Model & 4E Cognition
1:02:18 - Misconceptions & The Hype Bubble in Psychedelic Science
1:15:39 - The "Super Placebo" & The Meaning Response
1:19:09 - Can We Cultivate Transformation? Personality & Openness
1:22:39 - The "Einstein Effect" & Notable Research
1:28:59 - The Future: Toward a More "Sober" Psychedelic Science
1:33:44 - New Research: Magic Truffles & Natural Compounds
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Transcript:
https://tiagovf.com/posts/the-science-spirituality-of-psychedelics-with-michiel-van-elk-anagoge-podcast
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The intro song is by Lief Sjostrom, titled Peril, from the album 'Impossible Parade'. Website: https://liefsjostrom.com/ Album: https://liefsjostrom.bandcamp.com/album/impossible-parade
